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# What Is the Best Evidence for Life After Death? | Jeffrey Mishlove
- URL: https://famouspsychicmediums.com/episodes/what-is-the-best-evidence-for-life-after-death-jeffrey-mishlove/
- Published: 2026-08-26T19:20:44.000Z
- Updated: 2026-08-26T19:20:44.000Z
- Description: Is there definitive proof of life after death? Jeffrey Mishlove joins Closer To Truth to present his award-winning "bundle of arrows" argument, exploring near-death experiences, mediumship, and the metaphysical frameworks of consciousness beyond the brain.
- Author: Ian Ross
- Tags: Science

In this episode, host Robert Lawrence Kuhn sits down with Jeffrey Mishlove, winner of the 2021 Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies essay competition, to discuss the most compelling evidence for life after death. Mishlove outlines his "bundle of arrows" metaphor, arguing that while individual categories of paranormal phenomena can be criticized, their cumulative weight forms an unbreakable case for post-mortem survival.

The conversation systematically explores various categories of evidence, including near-death experiences, spontaneous after-death communications, reincarnation case studies from the University of Virginia, and peak in Darien experiences. They also delve into more controversial phenomena such as possession, instrumental transcommunication, mental mediumship—highlighted by a famous grandmaster chess game allegedly played from the afterlife—and physical mediumship.

Finally, Mishlove and Kuhn discuss the metaphysical frameworks that could accommodate consciousness existing independently of the brain. While exploring dualism and monism, Mishlove expresses his preference for idealism, suggesting that higher-dimensional space or hyperspace might offer a mathematical compatibility with the concept of an afterlife, even if the ultimate nature of post-mortem existence remains a mystery beyond human comprehension.

### Key takeaways

- The "bundle of arrows" metaphor suggests that the cumulative weight of diverse paranormal phenomena provides a stronger case for survival than any single category alone.
- Near-death experiences and spontaneous after-death communications offer profound subjective reports that often permanently alter the experiencer's worldview.
- The University of Virginia's database of over 2,500 children's past-life memory cases provides structured, verified case studies supporting reincarnation.
- The famous 1980s chess match between living grandmaster Victor Korchnoi and deceased master Geza Maroczy serves as a unique test of post-mortem skill retention.
- Metaphysical idealism, supported by historical traditions and modern thinkers, offers a framework where consciousness is the primary substance of reality.

### Highlights

- 5:59 — The "bundle of arrows" versus "leaky bucket" theories
- 10:10 — The near-death experience of Eben Alexander
- 32:12 — Reincarnation research at the University of Virginia
- 53:16 — The chess game played by a deceased grandmaster
- 1:02:35 — Martin Gardner's hyperspace theory of the afterlife

```chapters
00:00:00 Introduction to Post-Mortem Survival Evidence
00:04:45 The Bundle of Arrows Metaphor
00:07:46 Evaluating Near-Death Experiences
00:21:47 Spontaneous After-Death Communications
00:30:02 Reincarnation and Case Studies
00:41:15 Peak in Darien Experiences
00:42:44 Cases of Possession in Parapsychology
00:45:26 Instrumental Transcommunication and Technology
00:49:09 Mental Mediumship and the Chess Case
00:57:10 Physical Mediumship and Materialization
00:59:02 Frameworks of Consciousness Beyond the Brain
```

```vtt
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Let's<00:04:45.440> start<00:04:45.600> with<00:04:45.759> the<00:04:45.919> evidence.<00:04:46.320> You<00:04:46.479> frame<00:04:46.800> the<00:04:46.960> evidence<00:04:47.280> with<00:04:47.520> a<00:04:47.680> very<00:04:47.919> nice<00:04:48.800> uh<00:04:49.040> metaphor<00:04:49.680> and<00:04:49.919> a<00:04:50.080> diagram<00:04:50.639> called<00:04:50.960> the<00:04:51.199> spectrum<00:04:51.680> of<00:04:51.840> arrows.

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And<00:04:53.040> I<00:04:53.280> think<00:04:53.440> what<00:04:53.680> you<00:04:53.919> mean<00:04:54.240> by<00:04:54.479> that<00:04:55.040> and<00:04:55.280> I<00:04:55.440> assume<00:04:55.759> is<00:04:56.000> that<00:04:56.240> you<00:04:56.479> argue<00:04:56.880> that<00:04:57.440> each<00:04:57.680> of<00:04:57.840> these<00:04:58.320> different<00:04:59.280> ways<00:04:59.600> of<00:04:59.759> thinking<00:05:00.160> or<00:05:00.479> methodologies<00:05:01.440> point

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in<00:05:01.919> the<00:05:02.080> same<00:05:02.320> direction.<00:05:03.360> Um,<00:05:03.840> and<00:05:04.160> that's<00:05:04.400> this<00:05:04.800> spectrum<00:05:05.680> of<00:05:06.479> of<00:05:06.720> arrows.

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So<00:05:07.520> describe<00:05:07.919> the<00:05:08.160> spectrum<00:05:08.479> and<00:05:08.720> then<00:05:08.880> let's<00:05:09.120> go<00:05:09.440> we'll<00:05:09.759> we'll<00:05:10.080> we'll<00:05:10.400> go<00:05:10.560> through<00:05:10.800> each<00:05:10.960> of<00:05:11.039> the<00:05:11.199> arrows.

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It<00:05:12.400> actually<00:05:12.800> goes<00:05:13.199> back<00:05:13.440> to<00:05:13.680> the<00:05:13.919> founding<00:05:14.400> of<00:05:14.639> the<00:05:15.280> United<00:05:15.759> States<00:05:16.080> of<00:05:16.320> America,<00:05:16.880> the<00:05:17.199> 13<00:05:17.759> colonies.

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And<00:05:19.680> uh<00:05:19.919> at<00:05:20.160> one<00:05:20.400> time<00:05:20.800> as<00:05:21.120> I<00:05:21.440> understand<00:05:21.919> the<00:05:22.320> story,<00:05:22.720> the<00:05:23.039> founding<00:05:23.520> fathers,<00:05:24.400> some<00:05:24.639> of<00:05:24.720> them<00:05:24.960> were<00:05:25.199> familiar<00:05:25.600> with<00:05:25.919> the<00:05:26.240> Native<00:05:26.720> American<00:05:27.280> leaders

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who<00:05:28.320> showed<00:05:28.639> them<00:05:28.880> that<00:05:29.120> if<00:05:29.360> you<00:05:29.520> take<00:05:29.759> one<00:05:30.000> arrow<00:05:31.039> uh<00:05:31.120> you<00:05:31.360> could<00:05:31.440> easily<00:05:31.919> break<00:05:32.160> it<00:05:32.400> in<00:05:32.560> half<00:05:32.880> across<00:05:33.360> your<00:05:33.600> knee.

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But<00:05:34.400> if<00:05:34.560> you<00:05:34.720> take<00:05:35.120> 13<00:05:35.680> arrows<00:05:36.720> representing<00:05:37.360> in<00:05:37.600> those<00:05:37.840> days<00:05:38.400> the<00:05:38.720> 13<00:05:39.280> colonies,<00:05:40.080> they're<00:05:40.320> unbreakable.

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And<00:05:42.800> so<00:05:43.199> that<00:05:43.440> was<00:05:43.600> the<00:05:43.840> argument<00:05:44.479> in<00:05:44.639> fact<00:05:44.880> that<00:05:45.199> the<00:05:45.440> the<00:05:45.840> native<00:05:46.320> leaders<00:05:46.880> suggested<00:05:47.440> to<00:05:47.759> the<00:05:48.639> founding<00:05:49.120> fathers,<00:05:49.600> you've<00:05:49.840> got<00:05:49.919> to<00:05:50.160> unite

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the<00:05:50.800> colonies.<00:05:52.160> And<00:05:52.479> it<00:05:52.800> seemed<00:05:53.039> to<00:05:53.199> me<00:05:53.360> that<00:05:53.919> the<00:05:54.240> evidence<00:05:55.520> for<00:05:56.240> survival<00:05:56.880> is<00:05:57.199> very<00:05:57.520> much<00:05:57.759> the<00:05:58.080> same<00:05:58.320> is<00:05:58.560> that

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you<00:05:59.360> can<00:05:59.600> look<00:05:59.759> at<00:06:00.160> any<00:06:00.720> individual<00:06:01.520> piece<00:06:01.840> of<00:06:02.080> evidence<00:06:02.560> and<00:06:02.880> find<00:06:03.199> fault<00:06:03.600> with<00:06:03.840> it.

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But<00:06:04.639> when<00:06:04.880> you<00:06:05.280> see<00:06:06.000> the<00:06:06.560> different<00:06:06.960> lines<00:06:07.360> of<00:06:07.520> evidence<00:06:08.240> all<00:06:08.720> coming<00:06:09.120> together<00:06:10.400> that<00:06:10.880> is<00:06:11.039> is<00:06:11.360> analogous<00:06:12.000> to<00:06:12.240> the<00:06:12.479> bundle

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of<00:06:12.960> arrows<00:06:13.440> all<00:06:14.000> pointing<00:06:14.479> and<00:06:14.639> and<00:06:14.960> it<00:06:15.199> becomes<00:06:15.919> unbreakable.

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The<00:06:17.600> the<00:06:18.000> opposite<00:06:18.880> idea<00:06:19.360> is<00:06:19.600> what's<00:06:20.000> called<00:06:20.720> uh<00:06:21.120> popularly<00:06:21.680> the<00:06:21.919> leaky<00:06:22.400> bucket<00:06:22.880> theory<00:06:23.360> that<00:06:23.840> if<00:06:24.080> you<00:06:24.319> have<00:06:24.800> 13<00:06:25.199> different

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buckets<00:06:26.000> of<00:06:26.160> water<00:06:26.479> and<00:06:26.720> they're<00:06:26.960> all<00:06:27.120> leaking<00:06:28.080> then<00:06:28.419> [laughter]<00:06:29.360> putting<00:06:29.680> them<00:06:29.919> together<00:06:30.400> isn't<00:06:30.720> going<00:06:30.880> to<00:06:30.960> help<00:06:31.199> you.

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So<00:06:33.360> the<00:06:33.600> question<00:06:33.919> is<00:06:34.400> you<00:06:34.560> know<00:06:34.720> which<00:06:34.880> is<00:06:35.039> a<00:06:35.360> stronger<00:06:36.639> approach<00:06:37.199> from<00:06:37.520> a<00:06:38.000> logical<00:06:38.560> point<00:06:38.800> of<00:06:39.039> view<00:06:39.360> the<00:06:39.759> the<00:06:40.240> bundle<00:06:40.639> of<00:06:40.800> arrows<00:06:41.199> or

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the<00:06:41.600> leaky<00:06:42.000> buckets<00:06:42.560> and<00:06:42.720> I'm<00:06:42.960> arguing<00:06:43.680> for<00:06:43.919> the<00:06:44.160> bundle<00:06:44.479> of<00:06:44.639> arrows.

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Well,<00:06:45.520> I<00:06:45.680> I<00:06:46.000> think<00:06:46.160> you<00:06:46.319> could<00:06:46.479> argue<00:06:46.880> either<00:06:47.280> way,<00:06:47.600> but<00:06:47.840> it<00:06:48.080> depends<00:06:48.560> upon<00:06:49.199> how<00:06:49.680> leaky<00:06:50.240> each<00:06:50.560> bucket<00:06:50.960> is.

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You<00:06:52.000> know,<00:06:52.080> I<00:06:52.240> think<00:06:52.319> it's<00:06:52.560> a<00:06:52.720> I<00:06:52.960> think<00:06:53.039> it's<00:06:53.199> a<00:06:53.520> a<00:06:53.759> quantitative<00:06:54.400> test,<00:06:54.880> not<00:06:54.960> a<00:06:55.199> qualitative<00:06:56.240> logic<00:06:56.960> because<00:06:57.280> if<00:06:57.520> the<00:06:58.080> if<00:06:58.400> each<00:06:58.639> bucket<00:06:58.960> is<00:06:59.199> leaking<00:06:59.599> a<00:06:59.840> lot,

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uh<00:07:00.720> that<00:07:00.960> would<00:07:01.199> tend<00:07:01.599> to<00:07:02.080> to<00:07:02.319> to<00:07:02.560> skew<00:07:02.960> in<00:07:03.199> in<00:07:03.440> the<00:07:03.599> leaky<00:07:04.000> bucket<00:07:04.319> area.

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If<00:07:04.720> they're<00:07:05.199> leaking<00:07:05.520> a<00:07:05.759> tiny<00:07:06.080> bit,<00:07:06.880> um<00:07:07.039> that<00:07:07.360> might<00:07:07.919> that<00:07:08.240> might<00:07:08.639> support<00:07:08.960> the<00:07:09.120> bundle.

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So<00:07:09.680> I<00:07:09.840> think<00:07:10.000> we're<00:07:10.400> we're<00:07:10.800> left<00:07:11.039> to<00:07:11.360> looking<00:07:11.599> at<00:07:11.840> each<00:07:12.000> of<00:07:12.160> the<00:07:12.400> individual<00:07:12.960> arrows<00:07:13.680> in<00:07:14.000> your<00:07:14.160> metaphor.

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Uh<00:07:15.199> and<00:07:15.440> I<00:07:15.599> think<00:07:15.759> they<00:07:16.000> all<00:07:16.319> are<00:07:16.800> important<00:07:17.280> and<00:07:17.599> I<00:07:17.919> think<00:07:18.160> that<00:07:18.479> is<00:07:18.720> a<00:07:19.599> uh<00:07:19.680> a<00:07:20.000> great<00:07:20.319> contribution<00:07:21.120> of<00:07:21.440> your<00:07:21.680> paper<00:07:22.639> even<00:07:22.880> if<00:07:23.120> you

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disagree<00:07:24.479> with<00:07:24.800> all<00:07:25.120> of<00:07:25.360> them<00:07:25.599> and<00:07:25.919> think<00:07:26.080> they're<00:07:26.479> all<00:07:27.599> um<00:07:28.000> not<00:07:28.240> only<00:07:28.479> leaking<00:07:28.960> but<00:07:29.280> just<00:07:29.759> uh<00:07:30.000> you<00:07:30.160> know<00:07:30.319> totally<00:07:30.720> empty<00:07:31.840> uh

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that<00:07:32.639> this<00:07:32.960> paper<00:07:33.360> is<00:07:33.599> very<00:07:33.919> useful<00:07:34.560> in<00:07:34.880> going<00:07:35.120> through<00:07:35.360> those<00:07:35.680> categories.

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So<00:07:36.479> I<00:07:36.720> found<00:07:36.880> it<00:07:37.120> very<00:07:37.360> useful<00:07:38.160> uh<00:07:38.400> even<00:07:38.639> though<00:07:38.800> I<00:07:39.120> would<00:07:40.160> have<00:07:40.560> arguments<00:07:41.039> with<00:07:41.280> each<00:07:41.440> of<00:07:41.599> the<00:07:41.840> pieces<00:07:42.240> but<00:07:42.560> still<00:07:42.800> keeping<00:07:43.120> an<00:07:43.360> open<00:07:43.599> mind.

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So<00:07:44.400> very<00:07:44.720> useful<00:07:45.039> paper.<00:07:45.440> I<00:07:45.680> recommend<00:07:46.000> it<00:07:46.160> to<00:07:46.240> everybody.

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It's<00:07:46.800> available<00:07:47.120> on<00:07:47.280> the<00:07:47.440> web.<00:07:48.000> So<00:07:48.240> the<00:07:48.560> first<00:07:48.800> one<00:07:49.120> and<00:07:49.360> I<00:07:49.520> think<00:07:49.599> it's<00:07:50.080> it's<00:07:50.479> absolutely<00:07:51.120> the<00:07:51.360> right<00:07:51.599> one<00:07:52.080> to<00:07:52.319> put<00:07:52.639> in<00:07:52.880> first<00:07:53.199> place<00:07:53.520> under<00:07:53.840> the<00:07:54.080> evidence<00:07:54.479> is<00:07:54.720> near-death

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experiences.<00:07:57.280> Um<00:07:58.240> and<00:07:59.120> uh<00:07:59.360> I<00:07:59.599> I<00:08:00.560> should<00:08:00.879> tell<00:08:01.039> you<00:08:02.160> honestly<00:08:03.280> that<00:08:04.000> one

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of<00:08:04.639> the<00:08:05.440> uh<00:08:05.599> kind<00:08:05.840> of<00:08:05.919> criticisms<00:08:06.560> of<00:08:06.800> Closer<00:08:07.120> to<00:08:07.360> Truth<00:08:08.080> which<00:08:08.319> we<00:08:08.560> try<00:08:08.720> to<00:08:08.960> deal<00:08:09.199> with<00:08:10.080> ultimate<00:08:10.639> questions<00:08:11.280> in<00:08:11.759> cosmology<00:08:12.639> life

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mind<00:08:13.599> consciousness<00:08:14.879> philosophy<00:08:15.520> religion<00:08:16.319> is<00:08:16.639> that<00:08:16.879> we<00:08:17.120> have<00:08:17.280> not<00:08:17.520> given<00:08:17.919> enough<00:08:18.479> credence<00:08:18.960> to<00:08:19.680> uh<00:08:19.919> near-death<00:08:20.479> experience<00:08:21.120> then

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a<00:08:21.440> little<00:08:21.599> bit<00:08:22.160> on<00:08:22.479> both<00:08:22.720> sides<00:08:23.680> uh<00:08:23.759> but<00:08:24.080> not<00:08:24.319> very<00:08:24.560> much<00:08:25.840> um<00:08:26.080> and<00:08:26.400> That's<00:08:26.960> because<00:08:27.919> I've<00:08:28.400> been<00:08:28.639> a<00:08:28.879> bit<00:08:28.960> of<00:08:29.039> a<00:08:29.280> skeptic

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in<00:08:30.800> terms<00:08:31.199> of<00:08:32.000> uh<00:08:32.240> thinking<00:08:33.200> that<00:08:33.760> this<00:08:35.200> the<00:08:35.519> fact<00:08:35.760> that<00:08:36.000> the<00:08:36.959> uh<00:08:37.440> the<00:08:37.760> reports<00:08:38.320> are<00:08:38.640> real

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is<00:08:39.279> 100%<00:08:39.919> true.<00:08:40.640> The<00:08:40.880> fact<00:08:40.959> that<00:08:41.279> people<00:08:41.519> who<00:08:41.839> have<00:08:42.080> it<00:08:42.959> have<00:08:43.440> have<00:08:43.919> in<00:08:44.159> some<00:08:44.320> cases<00:08:44.640> their<00:08:44.959> lives<00:08:45.279> have<00:08:45.519> been<00:08:45.839> changed<00:08:46.240> or<00:08:46.560> their<00:08:46.800> views<00:08:47.120> have

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been<00:08:47.519> changed.<00:08:48.320> No<00:08:48.560> doubt<00:08:48.800> I<00:08:49.120> have<00:08:49.440> friends<00:08:49.760> who<00:08:50.000> are<00:08:50.160> scientists<00:08:50.640> who've<00:08:50.959> had<00:08:51.440> a<00:08:51.600> near-death<00:08:52.160> experience<00:08:52.560> and<00:08:52.800> it<00:08:53.040> changed<00:08:53.360> their<00:08:53.600> view.

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No<00:08:55.040> question.<00:08:55.600> No<00:08:55.920> question<00:08:56.240> about<00:08:56.480> that.

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But<00:08:57.920> I<00:08:58.320> still<00:08:58.959> question<00:08:59.519> whether<00:08:59.920> that<00:09:00.320> is<00:09:00.640> a<00:09:01.279> a<00:09:01.920> psychological<00:09:02.800> effect<00:09:03.360> which<00:09:03.519> is<00:09:03.680> understandable<00:09:04.560> or<00:09:05.519> this<00:09:06.399> window

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into<00:09:07.360> an<00:09:07.600> all<00:09:08.080> new<00:09:08.399> reality<00:09:09.440> and<00:09:09.680> that<00:09:10.000> it's<00:09:10.320> revealing<00:09:10.880> a<00:09:11.040> a<00:09:11.440> veridical<00:09:12.640> uh<00:09:13.040> reality.

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So<00:09:14.560> um<00:09:15.200> you<00:09:15.440> know<00:09:16.000> uh<00:09:16.160> let's<00:09:16.480> start<00:09:16.720> this<00:09:17.040> conversation<00:09:17.519> an<00:09:17.760> important<00:09:18.080> part<00:09:18.240> of<00:09:18.399> the<00:09:18.560> conversation.

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So<00:09:19.760> tell<00:09:20.000> me<00:09:20.880> uh<00:09:21.360> you<00:09:21.519> know<00:09:21.839> you're<00:09:22.080> talking<00:09:22.320> to<00:09:22.480> a<00:09:22.720> skeptic<00:09:24.160> um<00:09:24.399> and<00:09:24.720> so<00:09:25.360> what<00:09:25.600> do<00:09:25.760> you<00:09:25.920> tell<00:09:26.080> me<00:09:26.399> to<00:09:27.279> kind

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of<00:09:28.000> uh<00:09:28.320> jostle<00:09:28.880> my<00:09:29.120> skepticism?

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Well,<00:09:31.519> it<00:09:31.839> it<00:09:32.160> would<00:09:32.320> be<00:09:32.480> very<00:09:32.880> hard<00:09:33.680> and<00:09:34.320> I've<00:09:34.640> kind<00:09:34.959> of<00:09:35.519> arrived<00:09:36.000> at<00:09:36.160> a<00:09:36.399> point<00:09:36.640> in<00:09:36.880> my<00:09:37.200> life<00:09:37.519> where<00:09:37.760> I<00:09:38.000> don't<00:09:38.320> try<00:09:38.480> to<00:09:38.720> argue<00:09:39.200> with

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skeptics<00:09:41.040> very<00:09:41.600> very<00:09:42.000> much.

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Well,<00:09:42.399> I'm<00:09:42.560> I'm<00:09:42.720> a<00:09:42.880> nice<00:09:43.120> skeptic.<00:09:43.600> You<00:09:43.760> can<00:09:43.920> argue<00:09:44.160> with<00:09:44.399> me.

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I<00:09:44.800> I'll<00:09:45.120> keep<00:09:45.279> a<00:09:45.519> smile.<00:09:46.320> Well,<00:09:46.640> I<00:09:46.959> and<00:09:47.279> I<00:09:47.519> agree<00:09:48.000> agree.

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You're<00:09:48.640> a<00:09:48.800> very<00:09:49.040> nice<00:09:49.440> person,<00:09:49.839> Robert.<00:09:51.440> But<00:09:52.160> when<00:09:52.480> it<00:09:52.640> comes<00:09:52.880> to<00:09:53.040> the<00:09:53.200> near-death<00:09:53.920> experience,<00:09:56.320> one<00:09:56.640> can

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be<00:09:57.120> skeptical.<00:09:57.760> I<00:09:58.080> don't<00:09:58.160> think<00:09:58.320> there's<00:09:58.720> anything<00:09:59.120> wrong<00:09:59.360> with<00:09:59.680> being<00:10:00.320> skeptical<00:10:00.959> about<00:10:01.279> it.

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After<00:10:02.160> all,<00:10:02.480> you're<00:10:02.720> dealing<00:10:02.959> with<00:10:03.200> people's<00:10:04.080> subjective<00:10:04.800> reports.

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But<00:10:05.600> let's<00:10:05.920> take<00:10:06.080> an<00:10:06.399> individual<00:10:07.040> case<00:10:07.519> like<00:10:08.000> Eben<00:10:08.480> Alexander<00:10:09.200> is<00:10:09.440> probably<00:10:09.760> the<00:10:10.080> most<00:10:10.320> famous<00:10:11.279> modern<00:10:11.839> near-death<00:10:12.640> experiencer<00:10:13.920> who

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was<00:10:14.240> a<00:10:14.399> materialistic<00:10:15.440> neurosurgeon<00:10:16.480> for<00:10:17.279> most<00:10:17.600> of<00:10:17.839> his<00:10:18.160> career.

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He<00:10:18.959> developed<00:10:19.519> a<00:10:20.079> a<00:10:20.320> very<00:10:20.800> serious<00:10:22.480> brain<00:10:22.959> disorder<00:10:23.600> to<00:10:23.920> the<00:10:24.160> point<00:10:24.399> where<00:10:25.200> his<00:10:25.440> his<00:10:25.920> brain<00:10:26.640> was

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practically<00:10:27.519> turned<00:10:27.839> to<00:10:28.000> mush<00:10:28.959> as<00:10:29.360> far<00:10:29.600> as<00:10:29.760> I<00:10:30.079> can<00:10:30.240> tell.

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And<00:10:31.279> I've<00:10:31.600> talked<00:10:31.839> to<00:10:32.480> Dr.

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Bruce<00:10:33.279> Grayson,<00:10:33.839> a<00:10:34.000> physician<00:10:34.480> who<00:10:35.040> analyzed<00:10:35.760> all<00:10:36.000> the<00:10:36.320> medical<00:10:36.720> records.

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Uh<00:10:38.079> it<00:10:38.320> certainly<00:10:38.800> seemed<00:10:39.200> to<00:10:39.440> him<00:10:39.680> and<00:10:40.079> to<00:10:40.320> a<00:10:40.560> team<00:10:40.720> of<00:10:40.959> other<00:10:41.200> doctors<00:10:41.680> who<00:10:42.000> went<00:10:42.160> through<00:10:43.040> Alexander's<00:10:44.320> medical<00:10:44.800> records<00:10:45.360> during<00:10:45.680> his<00:10:46.000> coma

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that<00:10:47.600> the<00:10:48.000> chance<00:10:48.399> that<00:10:48.720> he<00:10:48.959> might<00:10:49.279> survive<00:10:49.760> at<00:10:50.000> all<00:10:50.399> was<00:10:50.720> less<00:10:51.040> than<00:10:51.360> 1%.

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And<00:10:52.640> if<00:10:52.800> he<00:10:53.040> did<00:10:53.279> survive,<00:10:54.240> it<00:10:54.480> would<00:10:54.640> have<00:10:54.800> been<00:10:55.040> expected<00:10:55.519> he<00:10:55.839> would<00:10:56.000> be<00:10:56.160> a<00:10:56.399> vegetable<00:10:57.279> for<00:10:57.600> the<00:10:57.839> rest<00:10:58.000> of<00:10:58.160> his<00:10:58.480> life.

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And<00:10:59.360> yet<00:11:00.000> if<00:11:00.240> if<00:11:00.640> you<00:11:00.880> see<00:11:01.040> him<00:11:01.360> today<00:11:02.480> uh<00:11:02.560> he's<00:11:02.880> a<00:11:03.120> highly<00:11:03.600> articulate<00:11:04.399> spokesperson<00:11:05.839> uh<00:11:06.000> and<00:11:06.320> he<00:11:06.560> describes<00:11:07.200> this

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fantastical<00:11:09.120> world<00:11:09.440> of<00:11:09.680> his<00:11:10.000> experience<00:11:10.959> and<00:11:11.920> it<00:11:12.160> includes<00:11:12.800> what<00:11:13.120> you<00:11:13.360> could<00:11:13.680> call<00:11:14.640> one<00:11:14.880> of<00:11:14.959> the<00:11:15.200> other<00:11:15.440> categories<00:11:16.240> I

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mentioned<00:11:17.456> in<00:11:18.432> my<00:11:19.408> paper<00:11:20.384> peak<00:11:21.360> experience.

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That<00:11:22.640> is<00:11:23.200> during<00:11:23.600> his<00:11:24.640> coma<00:11:25.519> experience<00:11:26.160> he<00:11:26.480> encountered<00:11:27.040> another<00:11:27.600> being<00:11:28.560> a<00:11:28.959> beautiful<00:11:29.440> woman<00:11:29.839> who<00:11:30.160> accompanied<00:11:30.800> him

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on<00:11:31.693> this<00:11:32.346> out-of-body<00:11:32.999> journey<00:11:33.653> that<00:11:34.306> he<00:11:34.959> experienced.

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Only<00:11:36.560> later<00:11:37.440> did<00:11:37.680> he<00:11:37.920> learn<00:11:38.720> that<00:11:38.959> he<00:11:39.440> because<00:11:39.760> he<00:11:40.000> had<00:11:40.160> been<00:11:40.320> adopted<00:11:40.880> and<00:11:41.200> he<00:11:41.360> encountered<00:11:41.920> his<00:11:42.959> original<00:11:44.640> parents'

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family<00:11:45.839> that<00:11:46.160> he<00:11:46.399> had<00:11:46.640> had<00:11:46.880> a<00:11:47.600> sister<00:11:48.640> who<00:11:49.680> uh<00:11:49.920> had<00:11:50.160> died.

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And<00:11:51.680> when<00:11:51.920> he<00:11:52.160> saw<00:11:52.399> her<00:11:52.959> picture,<00:11:53.440> he<00:11:53.680> he<00:11:54.079> said,<00:11:54.480> "This<00:11:54.800> is<00:11:54.959> the<00:11:55.279> person<00:11:55.600> who<00:11:55.839> was<00:11:56.079> with<00:11:56.320> me<00:11:56.800> in<00:11:57.040> my<00:11:57.680> uh<00:11:58.240> coma<00:11:58.959> experience."

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Although<00:12:00.880> he<00:12:01.440> didn't<00:12:01.760> even<00:12:02.000> know<00:12:02.240> about<00:12:02.560> her<00:12:03.360> uh<00:12:03.519> at<00:12:03.760> the<00:12:03.920> time<00:12:04.079> of<00:12:04.240> the<00:12:04.560> experience<00:12:05.200> itself.

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Now,<00:12:06.240> it's<00:12:06.560> easy<00:12:06.880> enough<00:12:07.200> to<00:12:07.519> say,<00:12:07.760> "Well,<00:12:08.480> it's<00:12:08.560> a<00:12:08.800> wish<00:12:09.040> fulfillment<00:12:09.760> fantasy."

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I<00:12:10.959> can't<00:12:11.200> dispute<00:12:11.680> that."<00:12:12.480> But<00:12:13.279> when<00:12:13.600> you<00:12:13.760> begin<00:12:14.079> to<00:12:14.560> see<00:12:15.120> all<00:12:15.519> of<00:12:15.760> these<00:12:16.240> experiences<00:12:17.440> together<00:12:18.079> combined<00:12:18.560> with<00:12:18.880> the

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other<00:12:19.839> eight<00:12:20.399> categories<00:12:21.680> or<00:12:21.920> if<00:12:22.079> we<00:12:22.639> eliminate<00:12:23.200> peak<00:12:23.440> and<00:12:24.399> seven<00:12:24.800> additional<00:12:25.440> categories<00:12:26.160> of<00:12:26.399> evidence<00:12:27.200> it

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begins<00:12:27.760> to<00:12:28.000> look<00:12:28.480> stronger<00:12:28.959> and<00:12:29.279> stronger<00:12:29.680> that<00:12:30.000> maybe<00:12:30.240> we<00:12:30.480> should<00:12:30.720> take<00:12:30.959> these<00:12:31.360> reports<00:12:32.240> literally.

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Okay.<00:12:33.519> Look,<00:12:33.680> I<00:12:33.920> think<00:12:34.000> there<00:12:34.160> are<00:12:34.320> two<00:12:34.880> uh<00:12:35.200> logical<00:12:36.079> structures<00:12:36.560> here.

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One<00:12:37.200> is<00:12:37.600> the<00:12:37.920> combination<00:12:38.399> of<00:12:38.639> them<00:12:38.959> which<00:12:39.200> I<00:12:39.360> I<00:12:39.440> I<00:12:40.000> agree.

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Uh<00:12:41.360> similar<00:12:41.760> arguments<00:12:42.240> have<00:12:42.480> been<00:12:42.639> used<00:12:42.959> for<00:12:43.440> the<00:12:43.680> proof<00:12:43.920> or<00:12:44.160> disproof<00:12:44.639> of<00:12:44.800> God's<00:12:45.120> existence<00:12:45.600> a<00:12:45.760> cumulative<00:12:46.320> case<00:12:47.279> uh<00:12:47.440> Richard<00:12:47.760> Swinburne<00:12:48.240> famously<00:12:49.120> makes

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in<00:12:49.680> his<00:12:50.160> uh<00:12:50.480> his<00:12:50.959> uh<00:12:51.920> uh<00:12:52.079> The<00:12:52.320> Existence<00:12:52.720> of<00:12:52.959> God<00:12:53.519> uh<00:12:53.839> approaches<00:12:54.399> a<00:12:54.560> cumulative<00:12:55.040> case<00:12:55.600> based<00:12:55.839> on<00:12:56.000> all<00:12:56.160> these<00:12:56.399> different<00:12:56.639> evidence.

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So<00:12:57.200> I<00:12:57.360> mean<00:12:57.440> it's<00:12:57.600> a<00:12:57.760> lot<00:12:58.480> there<00:12:58.720> is<00:12:58.880> a<00:12:59.120> logic<00:12:59.440> to<00:12:59.680> that<00:12:59.920> but<00:13:00.240> I<00:13:00.399> I<00:13:00.800> really<00:13:01.279> want<00:13:01.519> to<00:13:01.760> explore<00:13:02.160> each<00:13:02.399> one<00:13:02.720> in<00:13:02.959> depth.

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So<00:13:03.839> everything<00:13:04.160> you<00:13:04.399> said<00:13:04.560> about<00:13:05.120> Eben<00:13:05.680> Alexander<00:13:06.160> and<00:13:06.399> I'm<00:13:06.560> not<00:13:07.040> terribly<00:13:07.440> I'm<00:13:07.600> not<00:13:07.760> terribly<00:13:08.160> familiar<00:13:08.480> with<00:13:08.639> it.

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Uh,<00:13:09.440> but<00:13:11.680> certainly<00:13:12.160> sounds<00:13:12.639> true,<00:13:12.959> and<00:13:13.200> the<00:13:13.360> report<00:13:13.680> I<00:13:13.920> take<00:13:14.160> at<00:13:14.399> face<00:13:14.720> value.

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Uh,<00:13:16.160> but<00:13:16.800> the<00:13:17.279> but<00:13:17.600> I<00:13:17.839> I<00:13:17.920> I<00:13:18.639> don't<00:13:19.360> I<00:13:19.760> don't<00:13:20.639> see<00:13:21.680> why<00:13:22.240> that<00:13:22.800> would<00:13:23.279> give<00:13:23.600> me<00:13:24.000> a

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sense<00:13:24.560> that<00:13:24.880> that's<00:13:25.920> actually<00:13:26.399> something<00:13:26.720> that's<00:13:27.200> that<00:13:27.440> is<00:13:27.600> occurring<00:13:28.000> in<00:13:28.240> the<00:13:28.399> real<00:13:28.639> world,<00:13:28.880> that<00:13:29.040> it's<00:13:29.200> a<00:13:29.360> window<00:13:29.600> to<00:13:29.760> a<00:13:29.920> new<00:13:30.240> reality,<00:13:30.720> or<00:13:31.120> it's<00:13:31.360> it's<00:13:32.000> veridical.

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the<00:13:32.800> one<00:13:32.959> piece<00:13:33.120> of<00:13:33.279> evidence<00:13:33.600> that<00:13:33.920> he<00:13:34.399> had<00:13:35.040> a<00:13:35.360> sister<00:13:35.760> who<00:13:36.000> we<00:13:36.160> never<00:13:36.399> saw<00:13:36.639> and<00:13:36.880> he<00:13:37.200> recognized<00:13:37.680> from<00:13:37.839> the<00:13:38.079> dream.

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I<00:13:39.200> mean,<00:13:39.760> that<00:13:39.920> that<00:13:40.720> is<00:13:41.120> a<00:13:41.519> potential<00:13:42.959> if<00:13:43.360> that<00:13:43.680> were<00:13:43.920> indeed<00:13:44.240> the<00:13:44.480> case.

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And<00:13:44.959> it's<00:13:45.120> it's<00:13:45.440> hard<00:13:45.760> to<00:13:46.639> to,<00:13:47.279> you<00:13:47.440> know,<00:13:47.600> analyze<00:13:48.079> that<00:13:48.399> from<00:13:48.639> a<00:13:49.120> personal<00:13:49.600> point<00:13:49.760> of<00:13:49.920> view<00:13:50.399> and<00:13:50.800> wish<00:13:51.040> fulfillment,<00:13:51.680> or<00:13:52.880> you

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know<00:13:53.680> a<00:13:53.920> false<00:13:54.240> memory,<00:13:54.639> who<00:13:54.800> knows<00:13:55.040> what.

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Um,<00:13:56.480> it<00:13:56.639> it's,<00:13:57.440> you<00:13:57.600> know,<00:13:57.760> but<00:13:57.920> other<00:13:58.160> than<00:13:58.320> that,<00:13:58.720> everything<00:13:59.120> else<00:13:59.440> is<00:13:59.680> totally<00:14:00.079> explainable<00:14:00.720> without<00:14:01.440> having<00:14:01.839> some<00:14:02.240> ultimate<00:14:02.639> reality<00:14:03.199> behind<00:14:03.519> it.

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<00:14:04.803> Well,<00:14:05.206> actually,<00:14:05.610> I'm<00:14:06.014> not<00:14:06.417> quite<00:14:06.821> sure,<00:14:07.224> because<00:14:07.628> when<00:14:08.032> you<00:14:08.435> see<00:14:08.839> a<00:14:09.243> person<00:14:09.646> who<00:14:10.050> was<00:14:10.454> thought<00:14:10.857> to<00:14:11.261> have<00:14:11.664> 1%<00:14:12.068> chance<00:14:12.472> of<00:14:12.875> living<00:14:13.279> and

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even<00:14:14.480> if<00:14:14.800> then<00:14:15.279> being<00:14:15.519> a<00:14:15.760> vegetable<00:14:16.240> for<00:14:16.480> the<00:14:16.720> rest<00:14:16.800> of<00:14:17.040> his<00:14:17.279> life<00:14:18.079> emerge<00:14:18.560> as<00:14:18.800> a<00:14:19.040> highly<00:14:19.519> articulate,<00:14:20.560> fully<00:14:21.040> conscious,<00:14:22.160> uh

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individual.<00:14:23.123> You<00:14:23.446> have<00:14:23.770> to<00:14:24.093> ask<00:14:24.416> yourself,<00:14:24.739> how<00:14:25.062> did<00:14:25.386> that<00:14:25.709> happen?<00:14:26.032> And<00:14:26.355> <00:14:26.678> okay,<00:14:27.002> no,<00:14:27.325> that's<00:14:27.648> a<00:14:27.971> medical<00:14:28.294> question,<00:14:28.618> but<00:14:28.941> you<00:14:29.264> know,<00:14:29.587> to<00:14:29.910> and<00:14:30.234> and<00:14:30.557> there<00:14:30.880> are

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cases<00:14:31.699> like<00:14:32.038> that<00:14:32.377> in<00:14:32.717> cancer<00:14:33.056> remissions<00:14:33.395> that<00:14:33.734> are<00:14:34.073> the<00:14:34.412> 1%,<00:14:34.752> and<00:14:35.091> and<00:14:35.430> and<00:14:35.769> all<00:14:36.108> of<00:14:36.447> that,<00:14:36.787> and<00:14:37.126> you<00:14:37.465> know,<00:14:37.804> when<00:14:38.143> you<00:14:38.482> have<00:14:38.822> enough<00:14:39.161> <00:14:39.500> enough<00:14:39.839> billions

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of<00:14:40.480> of<00:14:40.959> opportunities<00:14:41.839> when<00:14:42.079> you're<00:14:42.240> dealing<00:14:42.560> with<00:14:42.720> something<00:14:42.959> of<00:14:43.440> 1%,<00:14:44.399> there'll<00:14:44.720> be<00:14:44.959> those<00:14:45.279> that<00:14:45.600> happen.<00:14:46.240> I<00:14:46.399> mean,<00:14:46.560> statistically,<00:14:47.440> those<00:14:47.760> will<00:14:48.000> happen,<00:14:48.399> and

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to<00:14:48.959> those<00:14:49.279> people<00:14:49.839> it's<00:14:50.160> not<00:14:50.399> oh<00:14:50.800> 1%,<00:14:51.440> it's<00:14:51.680> 100%<00:14:52.320> because<00:14:52.560> it's<00:14:53.279> they're<00:14:53.519> the<00:14:53.760> only<00:14:53.839> ones<00:14:54.079> that<00:14:54.320> have<00:14:54.480> it.

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So,<00:14:55.360> you're<00:14:55.600> dealing<00:14:55.839> with<00:14:56.000> a<00:14:56.240> little<00:14:56.320> bit<00:14:56.480> of<00:14:56.639> a<00:14:56.800> selection<00:14:57.440> effect<00:14:58.320> that<00:14:58.800> you<00:14:58.959> know<00:14:59.040> the<00:14:59.279> reason<00:14:59.519> we're<00:15:00.320> we<00:15:00.639> don't<00:15:00.800> live<00:15:01.040> in<00:15:01.199> the<00:15:01.360> middle<00:15:01.519> of<00:15:01.600> the<00:15:01.839> sun<00:15:02.320> is<00:15:02.639> is<00:15:02.800> is<00:15:03.440> not

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some<00:15:04.399> mystical<00:15:04.959> reason,<00:15:05.279> is<00:15:05.519> that<00:15:05.839> we<00:15:06.320> we<00:15:06.639> couldn't<00:15:06.959> be<00:15:07.120> there.

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So,<00:15:07.519> it's<00:15:07.760> a<00:15:07.920> selection<00:15:08.720> kind<00:15:08.959> of<00:15:09.600> effect.

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The<00:15:10.240> same<00:15:10.800> the<00:15:11.199> same<00:15:11.440> kind<00:15:11.680> of<00:15:11.839> thing<00:15:12.079> that<00:15:12.320> if<00:15:12.480> you<00:15:12.639> think<00:15:12.720> of<00:15:12.959> all<00:15:13.120> the<00:15:13.680> infinite<00:15:14.560> numbers<00:15:15.040> of<00:15:15.279> things<00:15:15.680> that<00:15:16.079> could<00:15:16.399> have<00:15:16.639> happened<00:15:17.360> that<00:15:17.680> didn't<00:15:18.079> happen,

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the<00:15:19.120> ones<00:15:19.360> that<00:15:19.680> do<00:15:20.639> are<00:15:21.040> statistically<00:15:21.920> insignificant.

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But<00:15:23.040> to<00:15:23.199> those<00:15:23.440> it<00:15:23.760> happens<00:15:24.079> to,<00:15:24.880> it's<00:15:25.120> significantly<00:15:25.839> very<00:15:26.240> significant.

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Like<00:15:27.440> to<00:15:27.680> the<00:15:27.839> one<00:15:28.079> blade<00:15:28.399> of<00:15:28.560> grass<00:15:28.800> that<00:15:29.040> the<00:15:29.279> golf<00:15:29.519> ball<00:15:29.839> landed<00:15:30.240> on.

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The<00:15:30.959> blade<00:15:31.279> of<00:15:31.440> grass<00:15:31.760> can<00:15:32.079> say,<00:15:32.639> I<00:15:32.959> am<00:15:33.199> super<00:15:33.600> special.

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There<00:15:34.320> are<00:15:34.560> tens<00:15:34.959> of<00:15:35.199> millions<00:15:35.600> of<00:15:36.000> grades<00:15:36.320> of<00:15:36.720> blades<00:15:37.120> of<00:15:37.279> grass,<00:15:37.600> but<00:15:37.839> the<00:15:38.000> golf<00:15:38.240> ball<00:15:38.560> chose<00:15:39.360> to<00:15:39.600> land<00:15:39.839> on<00:15:40.079> me.

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I'm<00:15:41.279> being<00:15:41.440> facetious,<00:15:42.160> but<00:15:42.399> it's<00:15:42.720> the<00:15:42.959> same<00:15:43.519> kind<00:15:43.760> of<00:15:44.000> argument.

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Um,<00:15:45.600> and<00:15:45.920> so,<00:15:47.360> and<00:15:47.600> there<00:15:47.760> are<00:15:47.920> arguments<00:15:48.240> on<00:15:48.480> the<00:15:48.560> other<00:15:48.720> side.

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I<00:15:49.199> mean,<00:15:49.279> there's<00:15:49.600> reports<00:15:50.000> that<00:15:50.480> that<00:15:51.120> uh,<00:15:51.440> I<00:15:51.680> don't<00:15:51.759> know<00:15:51.839> if<00:15:52.000> this<00:15:52.240> is<00:15:52.720> scientifically<00:15:53.600> repeatable<00:15:54.079> yet,<00:15:54.320> but<00:15:54.800> at<00:15:54.959> the<00:15:55.199> moment<00:15:55.360> of<00:15:55.600> death,<00:15:56.000> there's<00:15:56.959> a

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a<00:15:57.279> surge<00:15:57.600> of<00:15:57.759> serotonin<00:15:58.480> or<00:15:58.720> something<00:15:59.120> because<00:15:59.440> of<00:15:59.680> some<00:16:00.240> bodily<00:16:01.040> breakdown.

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And<00:16:02.480> for<00:16:02.720> those<00:16:02.959> who<00:16:03.199> come<00:16:03.360> back,<00:16:04.000> that<00:16:04.320> serotonin<00:16:04.959> will<00:16:05.199> have<00:16:05.360> changed<00:16:05.920> a<00:16:06.240> kind<00:16:06.399> of<00:16:06.480> a<00:16:06.800> the<00:16:07.120> mental<00:16:07.519> experience.

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So,<00:16:08.399> I<00:16:08.639> mean,<00:16:08.720> there<00:16:08.959> are<00:16:09.199> physical<00:16:09.680> ways<00:16:10.000> to<00:16:10.320> explain<00:16:10.720> it<00:16:11.360> without<00:16:12.480> postulating<00:16:14.000> uh<00:16:14.160> that<00:16:14.399> it's<00:16:14.639> a<00:16:14.880> window<00:16:15.199> into<00:16:16.560> heaven.

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I<00:16:18.079> don't<00:16:18.240> disagree<00:16:18.800> with<00:16:18.959> you<00:16:19.519> about<00:16:19.920> that.

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Actually,<00:16:21.360> I<00:16:21.600> think<00:16:21.759> you're<00:16:22.000> correct.<00:16:22.560> I<00:16:22.800> think<00:16:22.959> that<00:16:23.839> uh<00:16:24.000> it<00:16:24.240> is<00:16:24.720> possible<00:16:25.279> to<00:16:25.759> explain<00:16:26.320> these<00:16:26.720> things<00:16:27.519> without<00:16:28.079> invoking<00:16:28.639> an<00:16:28.959> afterlife.

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Uh,<00:16:31.199> I'm<00:16:31.519> not<00:16:31.680> inclined<00:16:32.560> in<00:16:32.880> that<00:16:33.199> direction,<00:16:33.680> but<00:16:33.920> I<00:16:34.240> respect<00:16:34.639> people<00:16:34.959> who<00:16:35.279> are.

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In<00:16:35.839> fact,<00:16:36.800> uh,<00:16:37.199> one<00:16:37.440> of<00:16:37.600> my<00:16:37.839> closest<00:16:38.320> friends,<00:16:38.800> Steve<00:16:39.199> Braude,<00:16:39.839> a<00:16:40.320> philosopher<00:16:41.040> who<00:16:41.360> who<00:16:41.680> looked<00:16:41.920> at<00:16:42.240> this,<00:16:43.040> uh,<00:16:43.360> very<00:16:43.759> very

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deeply<00:16:44.639> and<00:16:44.880> looked<00:16:45.120> at<00:16:45.360> all<00:16:45.519> the<00:16:45.839> same<00:16:46.079> evidence<00:16:46.480> that<00:16:46.800> I've<00:16:47.440> looked<00:16:47.680> at<00:16:48.079> and<00:16:48.240> and<00:16:48.639> has<00:16:48.880> was<00:16:49.120> awarded<00:16:50.079> by<00:16:50.320> the<00:16:50.800> American<00:16:51.360> Society,<00:16:52.399> not

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the<00:16:52.800> American,<00:16:53.279> the<00:16:53.519> Society<00:16:54.079> for<00:16:54.320> Psychical<00:16:54.959> Research<00:16:55.759> in<00:16:56.320> London<00:16:56.800> with<00:16:57.040> the<00:16:57.440> Frederick<00:16:58.000> Myers<00:16:58.560> Medal<00:16:59.199> for<00:16:59.519> his<00:17:00.000> work<00:17:00.639> in

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this<00:17:01.199> area.<00:17:01.680> When<00:17:01.920> I<00:17:02.079> ask<00:17:02.320> him<00:17:02.560> about<00:17:02.800> it,<00:17:03.120> he<00:17:03.600> says,<00:17:03.839> "Well,<00:17:04.640> on<00:17:04.880> Monday,<00:17:05.360> Wednesdays,<00:17:06.000> and<00:17:06.240> Fridays,<00:17:06.799> I<00:17:07.120> believe<00:17:07.360> in<00:17:07.600> the<00:17:07.760> afterlife,<00:17:08.480> and<00:17:08.959> Tuesdays,

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Thursdays,<00:17:10.319> and<00:17:10.640> Saturdays,<00:17:11.600> I<00:17:11.839> don't."

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<00:17:13.380> Uh,<00:17:13.640> Steven<00:17:13.900> Braude<00:17:14.160> was<00:17:14.419> was<00:17:14.679> a<00:17:14.939> great<00:17:15.199> thinker.

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He<00:17:15.839> was<00:17:15.919> also<00:17:16.319> a<00:17:16.559> very<00:17:16.799> good<00:17:16.959> friend<00:17:17.439> of<00:17:17.679> mine<00:17:17.919> as<00:17:18.079> well.

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We've<00:17:18.559> interviewed<00:17:18.959> him<00:17:19.120> twice.<00:17:19.760> I<00:17:20.000> kept<00:17:20.240> up<00:17:20.400> with<00:17:20.559> him<00:17:20.720> in<00:17:20.959> recent<00:17:21.199> years.

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He's<00:17:21.839> been<00:17:22.480> went<00:17:22.720> then<00:17:22.959> into<00:17:23.280> more<00:17:23.600> musical<00:17:24.240> kinds<00:17:24.480> of<00:17:24.640> things.

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I<00:17:25.199> respected<00:17:25.600> his<00:17:25.839> work.<00:17:26.640> Um,<00:17:27.199> and<00:17:27.760> uh<00:17:28.000> he<00:17:28.240> he<00:17:29.360> uh<00:17:29.520> was<00:17:29.760> one<00:17:30.000> of<00:17:30.080> the<00:17:30.240> ones<00:17:30.480> that<00:17:30.880> supported<00:17:31.840> or<00:17:32.240> thought<00:17:32.559> about<00:17:32.960> a

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a<00:17:33.840> super-psi<00:17:34.880> explanation<00:17:36.080> for<00:17:36.320> some<00:17:36.559> of<00:17:36.720> these<00:17:37.039> things,<00:17:37.360> which<00:17:37.840> which<00:17:38.160> means<00:17:38.400> he<00:17:38.720> believed<00:17:38.960> in<00:17:39.200> parapsychology<00:17:40.720> and<00:17:41.679> and

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rather<00:17:42.480> than<00:17:43.039> and<00:17:43.280> this<00:17:43.440> would<00:17:43.679> apply<00:17:43.919> to<00:17:44.160> many<00:17:44.400> of<00:17:44.640> the<00:17:44.880> categories.

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Rather<00:17:46.240> than<00:17:46.480> having<00:17:46.799> proof<00:17:47.039> of<00:17:47.200> an<00:17:47.440> afterlife,<00:17:48.320> it<00:17:48.640> just<00:17:48.799> proved<00:17:49.120> of<00:17:49.280> a<00:17:49.440> psychic<00:17:49.919> ability<00:17:50.320> in<00:17:50.640> this<00:17:50.880> life<00:17:51.600> to<00:17:51.919> discern<00:17:53.280> information<00:17:53.760> at<00:17:54.080> a

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distance<00:17:54.640> or<00:17:54.960> over<00:17:55.280> time,<00:17:55.840> precognition,<00:17:57.600> um<00:17:58.080> uh<00:17:58.320> or<00:17:58.559> or<00:17:59.520> um<00:18:00.320> uh<00:18:00.880> the<00:18:01.200> ability<00:18:01.679> to<00:18:02.160> maybe<00:18:02.559> telepathy,

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read<00:18:03.600> somebody's<00:18:04.160> mind<00:18:04.559> who<00:18:04.799> had<00:18:04.960> a<00:18:05.120> vision.

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And<00:18:06.000> so<00:18:06.160> there<00:18:06.400> are<00:18:06.640> other<00:18:06.960> kinds<00:18:07.440> of<00:18:08.160> parapsychological<00:18:10.000> explanations<00:18:11.280> for<00:18:11.600> a<00:18:11.840> near-death<00:18:12.480> experience<00:18:13.520> that<00:18:13.840> are

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non<00:18:15.039> afterlife<00:18:16.480> uh<00:18:16.880> uh<00:18:17.360> committed.

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<00:18:19.497> Absolutely<00:18:19.955> correct.<00:18:20.413> And<00:18:20.870> and<00:18:21.328> I<00:18:21.786> think<00:18:22.244> that<00:18:22.702> Braude<00:18:23.160> was<00:18:23.617> from<00:18:24.075> a<00:18:24.533> philosophical<00:18:24.991> point<00:18:25.449> of<00:18:25.907> view<00:18:26.364> uh<00:18:26.822> right<00:18:27.280> in

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holding<00:18:27.919> to<00:18:28.160> that<00:18:28.480> point<00:18:28.720> of<00:18:28.880> view<00:18:29.039> and<00:18:29.440> insisting<00:18:30.240> that<00:18:30.559> parapsychologists<00:18:32.160> try<00:18:32.400> to<00:18:32.559> come<00:18:32.720> to<00:18:32.960> terms<00:18:33.280> with<00:18:33.520> it<00:18:33.760> before<00:18:34.720> addressing<00:18:35.840> the

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issue<00:18:36.640> of<00:18:37.200> an<00:18:37.520> afterlife.<00:18:38.799> Uh,<00:18:39.120> I<00:18:39.360> disagree<00:18:40.000> with<00:18:40.240> him<00:18:40.960> about<00:18:41.360> it,<00:18:41.679> but<00:18:41.919> I<00:18:42.640> think<00:18:42.799> that<00:18:44.400> it's

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it's<00:18:45.039> hard<00:18:45.280> to<00:18:45.840> from<00:18:46.080> a<00:18:46.320> logical<00:18:46.880> perspective<00:18:47.679> deny<00:18:48.160> what<00:18:48.400> he's<00:18:49.360> saying<00:18:49.679> there.

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the<00:18:50.240> the<00:18:50.640> counter<00:18:51.520> argument<00:18:51.919> from<00:18:52.160> a<00:18:52.400> scientific<00:18:53.039> point<00:18:53.280> of<00:18:53.520> view<00:18:53.679> is<00:18:54.000> that<00:18:54.320> it's<00:18:54.559> not<00:18:54.720> a<00:18:55.039> scientific<00:18:55.760> argument<00:18:56.160> if<00:18:56.559> there's<00:18:56.960> no<00:18:57.200> way<00:18:57.360> to<00:18:57.520> test<00:18:57.840> it,<00:18:58.080> so

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we<00:18:58.629> can<00:18:58.937> ignore<00:18:59.246> it.<00:18:59.554> [laughter]<00:18:59.863> <00:19:00.171> Well,<00:19:00.480> I<00:19:00.789> think<00:19:01.097> both<00:19:01.406> sides<00:19:01.714> of<00:19:02.023> that<00:19:02.331> are<00:19:02.640> non-scientific.

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The<00:19:04.000> afterlife<00:19:04.559> is<00:19:04.799> non-scientific<00:19:06.080> and<00:19:06.320> the<00:19:06.640> capacity<00:19:07.280> I<00:19:07.520> think<00:19:07.760> of<00:19:08.080> subjecting<00:19:08.960> a<00:19:09.280> parapsychological<00:19:10.960> explanation<00:19:11.600> for<00:19:11.840> near-death

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experiences<00:19:13.120> without<00:19:13.440> an<00:19:13.679> afterlife<00:19:14.400> is<00:19:14.720> also<00:19:15.039> non-scientific.

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And<00:19:16.799> so<00:19:17.440> if<00:19:17.679> the<00:19:17.919> phenomena<00:19:18.400> is<00:19:18.640> real,<00:19:19.200> the<00:19:19.440> fact<00:19:19.520> that<00:19:19.679> it's<00:19:19.840> non-scientific<00:19:20.559> does<00:19:20.799> not<00:19:20.960> mean<00:19:21.039> the<00:19:21.280> phenomena<00:19:21.760> is<00:19:22.000> not<00:19:22.240> real.

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I<00:19:23.039> want<00:19:23.200> to<00:19:23.360> state<00:19:23.600> that.<00:19:24.240> But<00:19:24.320> it<00:19:24.559> means<00:19:24.720> that<00:19:24.880> it's<00:19:25.039> not<00:19:25.200> subject<00:19:25.520> to<00:19:25.679> the<00:19:25.919> scientific<00:19:26.400> method.

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Uh,<00:19:27.440> and<00:19:27.600> that<00:19:27.840> may<00:19:28.080> mean<00:19:28.320> for<00:19:28.480> some<00:19:28.720> people<00:19:28.880> a<00:19:29.120> full<00:19:29.360> stop.

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Uh,<00:19:30.160> for<00:19:30.320> me<00:19:30.480> it<00:19:30.720> doesn't<00:19:30.960> mean<00:19:31.039> a<00:19:31.280> full<00:19:31.520> stop.

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It<00:19:32.240> means<00:19:32.400> to<00:19:32.640> be<00:19:32.799> aware<00:19:33.200> of<00:19:33.440> your<00:19:34.160> premises<00:19:35.280> and<00:19:35.679> then<00:19:36.240> continue<00:19:36.799> to<00:19:37.280> try<00:19:37.600> to<00:19:37.840> tease<00:19:38.240> out<00:19:38.640> information.

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So<00:19:39.679> that's<00:19:39.919> why<00:19:40.080> I<00:19:40.320> think<00:19:40.400> the<00:19:40.720> conversation<00:19:41.200> is<00:19:41.360> very<00:19:41.679> important<00:19:42.240> and<00:19:42.480> the<00:19:42.799> particular<00:19:43.360> tension<00:19:44.400> between<00:19:44.880> Steve<00:19:45.280> Braude's<00:19:46.000> super-psi<00:19:47.039> and<00:19:47.360> your<00:19:49.039> uh

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continuation<00:19:50.080> of<00:19:50.240> life<00:19:50.559> after<00:19:50.880> death<00:19:51.360> is<00:19:51.600> a<00:19:51.840> very<00:19:52.320> important<00:19:53.440> um<00:19:53.919> uh<00:19:55.280> dyadic<00:19:56.000> tension<00:19:56.960> that<00:19:57.360> is<00:19:57.600> very

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um<00:19:58.960> that<00:19:59.360> helps<00:19:59.840> explain<00:20:00.480> the<00:20:00.880> the<00:20:00.960> the<00:20:01.600> nature<00:20:01.919> of<00:20:02.080> of<00:20:02.240> the<00:20:02.480> issue.

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Well,<00:20:04.960> part<00:20:05.280> of<00:20:05.440> part<00:20:05.760> of<00:20:05.840> the<00:20:06.080> issue<00:20:06.400> has<00:20:06.640> to<00:20:06.880> do<00:20:07.120> with<00:20:07.360> our<00:20:07.679> hidden<00:20:08.080> assumptions.

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And<00:20:09.520> of<00:20:09.679> course,<00:20:09.919> we<00:20:10.160> live<00:20:10.320> in<00:20:10.480> a<00:20:10.720> culture<00:20:11.120> where<00:20:12.000> everybody's<00:20:12.880> basic<00:20:13.280> hidden<00:20:13.679> assumption<00:20:14.320> is<00:20:14.960> fundamentally<00:20:16.160> looking<00:20:16.480> for<00:20:16.640> a<00:20:16.880> materialist,<00:20:18.080> mechanistic

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explanation.<00:20:20.240> And<00:20:20.960> if<00:20:21.280> that<00:20:21.679> can't<00:20:22.000> be<00:20:22.240> found,<00:20:22.720> then<00:20:23.760> going<00:20:24.160> to<00:20:25.039> the<00:20:25.760> uh<00:20:27.120> skeptical<00:20:27.840> alternative,

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there<00:20:28.720> must<00:20:28.960> be<00:20:29.120> an<00:20:29.520> error<00:20:29.840> somewhere.<00:20:32.080> Yeah,<00:20:32.480> I<00:20:32.799> think<00:20:33.039> both<00:20:33.360> are<00:20:33.600> valid.

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I<00:20:34.240> mean,<00:20:34.799> as<00:20:35.039> as<00:20:35.360> you<00:20:35.520> said<00:20:35.760> earlier,<00:20:36.480> uh<00:20:36.960> the<00:20:37.280> large<00:20:37.600> percentage<00:20:38.000> of<00:20:38.240> the<00:20:38.720> general<00:20:39.120> population<00:20:40.080> believe<00:20:40.320> in<00:20:40.559> an<00:20:40.799> afterlife<00:20:42.640> uh

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for<00:20:43.200> religious<00:20:43.679> reasons<00:20:43.919> or<00:20:44.159> other<00:20:44.400> reasons<00:20:44.720> or<00:20:45.840> wishful<00:20:46.320> thinking<00:20:46.480> or<00:20:46.720> whatever.

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Uh,<00:20:48.480> but<00:20:48.799> among<00:20:49.760> scientists<00:20:50.320> for<00:20:50.480> sure<00:20:50.640> and<00:20:50.880> academics<00:20:51.440> in<00:20:51.679> general,<00:20:52.480> uh<00:20:52.640> it's<00:20:52.799> it's<00:20:53.200> far<00:20:53.440> lower.

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<00:20:54.893> Yeah,<00:20:55.307> that<00:20:55.720> that<00:20:56.133> is<00:20:56.547> the<00:20:56.960> case.

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But<00:20:58.314> all<00:20:58.549> right,<00:20:58.783> le<00:20:59.017> let's<00:20:59.251> go<00:20:59.486> to<00:20:59.720> some<00:20:59.954> of<00:21:00.189> the<00:21:00.423> other<00:21:00.657> categories<00:21:00.891> and<00:21:01.126> I<00:21:01.360> think<00:21:01.594> we<00:21:01.829> will<00:21:02.063> have<00:21:02.297> a<00:21:02.531> similar<00:21:02.766> kind<00:21:03.000> of<00:21:03.234> explanation,<00:21:03.469> but<00:21:03.703> I'd<00:21:03.937> like<00:21:04.171> to<00:21:04.406> understand<00:21:04.640> the

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categories<00:21:05.360> and<00:21:05.600> how<00:21:05.760> they<00:21:06.000> differ<00:21:06.559> from<00:21:06.880> each<00:21:07.120> other<00:21:07.360> and<00:21:07.679> why<00:21:08.000> each<00:21:08.240> of<00:21:08.400> these<00:21:08.799> arrows<00:21:10.080> uh<00:21:10.240> are<00:21:10.559> a<00:21:10.880> different<00:21:11.120> kind<00:21:11.360> of<00:21:11.520> methodology,<00:21:12.320> because<00:21:13.120> the

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overarching<00:21:14.159> structure<00:21:14.640> where<00:21:14.880> you<00:21:15.039> have<00:21:15.280> different<00:21:15.679> methodologies<00:21:16.960> pointing<00:21:17.280> to<00:21:17.440> the<00:21:17.679> same<00:21:18.559> data<00:21:19.120> is<00:21:19.440> a<00:21:19.840> fundamental<00:21:20.880> principle<00:21:21.520> of

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ascertaining<00:21:23.039> new<00:21:23.360> kinds<00:21:23.679> of<00:21:23.919> truths.

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I<00:21:24.640> think<00:21:24.720> that's<00:21:24.880> a<00:21:25.120> wonderful<00:21:25.360> idea.<00:21:25.679> We<00:21:25.919> see<00:21:26.000> it<00:21:26.559> in<00:21:26.799> the<00:21:27.360> um<00:21:27.520> in<00:21:27.760> particle<00:21:28.240> physics<00:21:28.640> and<00:21:28.880> in<00:21:28.960> in<00:21:29.760> fundamental<00:21:30.400> physics.

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We<00:21:30.960> see<00:21:31.120> it<00:21:31.760> to<00:21:32.320> some<00:21:32.559> degrees<00:21:32.880> in<00:21:33.039> in<00:21:33.360> chemistry<00:21:33.679> and<00:21:33.919> biology<00:21:34.480> where<00:21:34.720> you<00:21:34.880> have<00:21:35.039> different<00:21:35.679> uh<00:21:36.159> different<00:21:36.480> ways<00:21:36.799> of<00:21:36.960> thinking<00:21:37.360> pointing<00:21:37.840> to<00:21:38.000> the<00:21:38.320> same<00:21:38.799> kind

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of<00:21:39.200> of<00:21:39.600> results.<00:21:40.159> Uh<00:21:41.120> um<00:21:41.520> some<00:21:41.840> deep<00:21:42.159> structural<00:21:42.720> relationships<00:21:43.440> even<00:21:43.600> in<00:21:43.840> mathematics<00:21:44.480> that's<00:21:46.080> very<00:21:46.480> important<00:21:47.039> areas.

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Uh<00:21:48.103> so<00:21:48.527> the<00:21:48.951> next<00:21:49.375> one<00:21:49.799> you<00:21:50.223> have<00:21:50.647> is<00:21:51.071> is<00:21:51.495> after-death<00:21:51.919> communications,<00:21:52.343> and<00:21:52.767> this<00:21:53.191> is<00:21:53.615> I<00:21:54.039> assume<00:21:54.463> through<00:21:54.887> mediums<00:21:55.311> or<00:21:55.735> uh<00:21:56.159> people

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have<00:21:57.108> experiences<00:21:57.735> with<00:21:58.363> dead<00:21:58.991> relatives<00:21:59.618> or<00:22:00.246> uh<00:22:00.874> lucid<00:22:01.502> dreams<00:22:02.129> uh<00:22:02.757> um<00:22:03.385> <00:22:04.012> not<00:22:04.640> much

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mediums,<00:22:05.212> that's<00:22:05.544> a<00:22:05.876> separate<00:22:06.207> category<00:22:06.539> <00:22:06.871> okay<00:22:07.203> me<00:22:07.535> me<00:22:07.867> okay<00:22:08.199> I<00:22:08.530> don't<00:22:08.862> want<00:22:09.194> to<00:22:09.526> I<00:22:09.858> don't<00:22:10.190> want<00:22:10.521> to<00:22:10.853> conflate<00:22:11.185> categories,<00:22:11.517> I'm<00:22:11.849> sorry,<00:22:12.181> I<00:22:12.513> apologize<00:22:12.844> uh<00:22:13.176> so<00:22:13.508> okay<00:22:13.840> so

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these<00:22:14.619> are<00:22:15.157> spontaneous<00:22:15.696> uh<00:22:16.234> after-death<00:22:16.773> communications<00:22:17.312> <00:22:17.850> the<00:22:18.389> dream<00:22:18.927> that<00:22:19.466> I<00:22:20.005> had<00:22:20.543> in<00:22:21.082> 1972<00:22:21.620> <00:22:22.159> is

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an<00:22:22.737> example,<00:22:23.073> right<00:22:23.410> <00:22:23.747> when<00:22:24.083> my<00:22:24.420> uncle<00:22:24.757> Harry<00:22:25.093> appeared<00:22:25.430> to<00:22:25.767> me<00:22:26.103> at<00:22:26.440> the<00:22:26.777> moment<00:22:27.113> of<00:22:27.450> his<00:22:27.787> death<00:22:28.123> would<00:22:28.460> be<00:22:28.797> one<00:22:29.133> such<00:22:29.470> ex<00:22:29.807> example,<00:22:30.143> and<00:22:30.480> they're

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commonly<00:22:31.760> reported<00:22:32.400> by<00:22:32.799> people<00:22:33.440> and<00:22:34.000> sometimes<00:22:34.559> in<00:22:35.039> great<00:22:35.360> detail,<00:22:35.840> that<00:22:36.080> in<00:22:36.240> fact<00:22:36.880> uh<00:22:37.679> Karen<00:22:38.159> McCarthy<00:22:38.799> is<00:22:39.039> a

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woman<00:22:39.760> I've<00:22:40.240> interviewed<00:22:41.039> who<00:22:41.679> was<00:22:41.919> a<00:22:42.159> a<00:22:42.480> very<00:22:42.799> hardboiled<00:22:43.760> war<00:22:44.240> reporter<00:22:45.280> and<00:22:46.400> she<00:22:46.640> was<00:22:46.960> engaged<00:22:47.440> to<00:22:47.679> be

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married<00:22:48.720> when<00:22:49.039> her<00:22:49.280> fiance<00:22:50.000> died<00:22:50.799> suddenly<00:22:51.520> and<00:22:52.080> he<00:22:52.400> began<00:22:52.799> appearing<00:22:53.280> to<00:22:53.520> her<00:22:53.840> more<00:22:54.159> and<00:22:54.480> more<00:22:55.200> frequently<00:22:55.760> and<00:22:56.159> dramatically<00:22:56.960> in

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ways<00:22:57.520> that<00:22:57.760> she<00:22:58.000> could<00:22:58.240> not<00:22:58.480> deny.<00:22:59.440> She<00:22:59.679> gave<00:22:59.919> up<00:23:00.159> her<00:23:00.480> career<00:23:00.880> as<00:23:01.120> a<00:23:01.280> war<00:23:01.679> reporter<00:23:02.159> and<00:23:02.480> became<00:23:02.799> a<00:23:03.039> spiritualist<00:23:03.760> medium<00:23:04.880> as<00:23:05.280> a

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result.<00:23:06.117> That<00:23:06.714> would<00:23:07.311> be<00:23:07.908> an<00:23:08.505> example<00:23:09.102> of<00:23:09.698> an<00:23:10.295> after-death<00:23:10.892> a<00:23:11.489> series<00:23:12.086> of<00:23:12.683> after-death<00:23:13.280> communications.

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And<00:23:14.559> and<00:23:14.880> sometimes<00:23:15.440> they<00:23:16.000> hit<00:23:16.240> you<00:23:16.480> over<00:23:16.720> the<00:23:16.880> head<00:23:17.120> in<00:23:17.360> in<00:23:17.679> a<00:23:17.919> way<00:23:18.080> that's<00:23:18.480> undeniable<00:23:19.360> and<00:23:19.919> changes<00:23:20.480> your<00:23:20.799> life.

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And<00:23:21.440> I'm<00:23:21.760> particularly<00:23:22.400> interested<00:23:22.880> in<00:23:23.440> cases<00:23:23.919> where<00:23:24.240> people's<00:23:24.720> lives<00:23:25.200> get<00:23:25.520> turned<00:23:25.840> around<00:23:27.120> 180<00:23:27.520> degrees<00:23:28.159> like<00:23:28.480> that.

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And<00:23:29.280> I<00:23:29.520> appreciate<00:23:30.159> that<00:23:30.480> you've<00:23:30.799> had<00:23:31.039> that<00:23:31.360> personal<00:23:31.760> experience<00:23:32.240> and<00:23:32.480> therefore<00:23:32.880> that<00:23:33.280> has<00:23:33.679> given<00:23:34.000> you<00:23:34.240> a<00:23:34.480> predilection<00:23:35.200> to<00:23:35.760> seek<00:23:36.000> out<00:23:36.240> other<00:23:36.480> people<00:23:36.720> who<00:23:36.880> have<00:23:37.039> the

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same<00:23:37.520> thing.<00:23:38.080> You<00:23:38.240> know,<00:23:38.400> my<00:23:38.640> argument<00:23:39.120> against<00:23:39.440> that<00:23:39.840> is<00:23:40.080> is<00:23:40.880> some<00:23:41.200> you<00:23:41.360> know<00:23:41.520> what<00:23:41.679> I<00:23:41.840> said<00:23:42.000> before<00:23:42.960> is<00:23:43.280> that<00:23:44.159> the<00:23:44.480> one<00:23:44.720> event<00:23:45.200> that<00:23:45.679> you

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had<00:23:46.480> is<00:23:46.880> real<00:23:47.760> and<00:23:48.000> that's<00:23:48.400> a<00:23:49.679> particular<00:23:50.320> data<00:23:50.720> point<00:23:51.440> that<00:23:51.840> occurred<00:23:52.320> and<00:23:53.520> McCarthy<00:23:54.480> had

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that<00:23:54.960> experience.<00:23:55.520> That's<00:23:55.919> real.<00:23:56.559> Not<00:23:56.799> denying<00:23:57.200> any<00:23:57.440> of<00:23:57.600> those.

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fraction<00:24:07.520> are<00:24:07.760> all<00:24:08.080> the<00:24:08.320> cases<00:24:09.120> where<00:24:09.360> it<00:24:09.600> didn't<00:24:09.840> happen,<00:24:10.480> where<00:24:10.720> there<00:24:10.960> was<00:24:11.120> no<00:24:11.440> relationship<00:24:12.559> between<00:24:13.600> uh<00:24:14.559> between<00:24:14.880> a

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relative<00:24:15.417> or<00:24:15.714> anything<00:24:16.011> else.<00:24:16.309> I<00:24:16.606> mean<00:24:16.903> I've<00:24:17.200> had<00:24:17.497> thou<00:24:17.794> millions,<00:24:18.091> who<00:24:18.389> knows<00:24:18.686> how<00:24:18.983> many<00:24:19.280> tens<00:24:19.577> of<00:24:19.874> thousands<00:24:20.171> of<00:24:20.469> dreams<00:24:20.766> in<00:24:21.063> my<00:24:21.360> life<00:24:21.657> and<00:24:21.954> in<00:24:22.251> many,<00:24:22.549> not<00:24:22.846> not<00:24:23.143> not<00:24:23.440> a

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majority<00:24:23.919> but<00:24:24.080> a<00:24:24.240> few,<00:24:24.400> my<00:24:24.640> parents<00:24:24.880> I<00:24:25.120> see<00:24:25.279> my<00:24:25.520> parents<00:24:25.840> made<00:24:26.159> my<00:24:26.400> father<00:24:26.640> and<00:24:26.799> my<00:24:27.039> mother<00:24:27.200> who<00:24:27.679> died<00:24:28.000> a<00:24:28.159> long<00:24:28.320> time<00:24:28.400> ago<00:24:29.200> and<00:24:29.760> you<00:24:30.000> know<00:24:30.799> it's<00:24:31.520> part<00:24:31.760> of

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my<00:24:32.320> subconscious,<00:24:32.960> whatever<00:24:33.200> it<00:24:33.360> is,<00:24:33.600> but<00:24:34.240> none<00:24:34.480> of<00:24:34.559> it<00:24:34.720> has<00:24:34.960> had<00:24:35.279> any<00:24:36.080> veridical<00:24:37.039> relationship<00:24:37.600> with<00:24:37.840> anything<00:24:38.080> else,<00:24:38.480> nothing<00:24:38.720> else<00:24:38.960> happened,<00:24:39.279> nothing<00:24:39.520> else<00:24:39.760> associated

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with<00:24:40.480> it,<00:24:40.880> so<00:24:41.120> all<00:24:41.360> those<00:24:41.600> things<00:24:41.919> didn't<00:24:42.240> happen,<00:24:42.960> so<00:24:43.200> what<00:24:43.760> what<00:24:44.159> the<00:24:44.480> individual<00:24:45.200> case<00:24:45.440> studies<00:24:46.320> show<00:24:47.200> are<00:24:47.520> individual<00:24:48.080> data<00:24:48.400> points.

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But<00:24:49.039> what<00:24:49.279> you<00:24:49.600> we're<00:24:49.919> not<00:24:50.080> talking<00:24:50.320> about<00:24:50.480> is<00:24:50.720> the<00:24:51.039> denominator<00:24:51.919> and<00:24:52.240> denominator,<00:24:53.120> you<00:24:53.279> know,<00:24:53.440> has<00:24:53.679> to<00:24:53.760> be<00:24:53.919> measured<00:24:54.320> exponentially.

00:24:55.120 --> 00:25:03.440
All<00:24:55.360> the<00:24:55.600> different<00:24:57.679> relationships<00:24:58.400> that<00:24:58.640> might<00:24:58.880> have<00:24:59.039> occurred<00:24:59.360> that<00:24:59.520> might<00:24:59.679> have<00:24:59.919> seemed<00:25:00.240> if<00:25:00.400> they<00:25:00.640> happened<00:25:01.120> particular<00:25:01.919> did<00:25:02.159> not<00:25:02.320> occur<00:25:02.880> and<00:25:03.120> they

00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:10.480
we<00:25:03.679> don't<00:25:03.840> know<00:25:04.000> them<00:25:04.240> because<00:25:04.480> they<00:25:05.039> never<00:25:05.279> occurred<00:25:05.679> and<00:25:05.840> those<00:25:06.080> are<00:25:06.559> trillions<00:25:07.039> and<00:25:07.279> trillions<00:25:07.840> and<00:25:08.400> m<00:25:08.720> multiple<00:25:09.360> orders<00:25:09.679> of<00:25:09.919> magnitude.

00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:18.960
You<00:25:10.720> have<00:25:10.799> to<00:25:10.960> use<00:25:11.360> what's<00:25:11.679> called<00:25:12.480> uh<00:25:12.640> N's<00:25:13.120> up<00:25:13.360> arrows,<00:25:14.080> which<00:25:14.320> is<00:25:14.960> towers<00:25:15.440> of<00:25:15.679> exponent<00:25:16.480> exponents<00:25:17.200> to<00:25:17.600> to<00:25:18.720> see

00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:27.520
the<00:25:19.279> number<00:25:19.520> of<00:25:20.080> uh<00:25:20.480> of<00:25:21.120> uh<00:25:21.440> of<00:25:22.000> uh<00:25:22.480> of<00:25:22.720> of<00:25:22.960> things<00:25:23.200> that<00:25:23.440> that<00:25:24.159> if<00:25:24.480> they<00:25:24.640> did<00:25:24.799> occur<00:25:25.760> would<00:25:26.000> have<00:25:26.240> been<00:25:26.559> a<00:25:26.880> special<00:25:27.200> experience,

00:25:27.520 --> 00:25:32.640
but<00:25:27.679> they<00:25:27.919> didn't<00:25:28.080> occur<00:25:28.400> because<00:25:28.559> they<00:25:28.799> weren't.<00:25:29.520> And<00:25:29.679> so<00:25:30.000> there's<00:25:30.320> almost<00:25:30.559> an<00:25:30.799> infinite<00:25:31.279> number<00:25:31.520> of<00:25:31.760> those.

00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:37.520
And<00:25:32.880> to<00:25:33.120> the<00:25:33.279> individual<00:25:33.760> that<00:25:34.080> it<00:25:34.320> happens<00:25:34.640> to<00:25:34.880> like<00:25:35.120> you,<00:25:36.000> it<00:25:36.240> it's<00:25:36.559> very<00:25:36.799> meaningful.

00:25:37.520 --> 00:25:43.760
But<00:25:38.159> um<00:25:38.720> but<00:25:39.360> statistically<00:25:40.559> it<00:25:40.880> it<00:25:40.960> it<00:25:41.520> has<00:25:41.679> to<00:25:41.919> happen<00:25:42.240> to<00:25:42.480> some.

00:25:43.760 --> 00:25:52.480
<00:25:44.206> Well,<00:25:44.653> we<00:25:45.099> really<00:25:45.545> need<00:25:45.992> more<00:25:46.438> statistical<00:25:46.884> analyses<00:25:47.331> so<00:25:47.777> that<00:25:48.223> we<00:25:48.669> could<00:25:49.116> actually<00:25:49.562> uh<00:25:50.008> begin<00:25:50.455> to<00:25:50.901> look<00:25:51.347> at<00:25:51.794> this<00:25:52.240> in

00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:55.120
a<00:25:52.720> more<00:25:52.960> refined<00:25:53.600> way<00:25:54.559> right<00:25:54.880> now.

00:25:55.120 --> 00:26:03.440
I<00:25:55.600> I<00:25:56.080> imagine<00:25:56.559> there<00:25:56.799> are<00:25:56.960> millions<00:25:57.360> of<00:25:57.600> people<00:25:57.840> who<00:25:58.080> have<00:25:58.240> had<00:25:58.400> the<00:25:58.559> near-death<00:25:59.279> experience<00:25:59.919> and<00:26:00.400> we<00:26:00.720> haven't<00:26:01.120> submitted<00:26:01.679> all<00:26:01.919> of<00:26:02.080> that<00:26:02.320> to<00:26:02.559> some<00:26:02.799> sort<00:26:03.039> of<00:26:03.200> a

00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:10.559
big<00:26:03.679> data<00:26:04.480> analysis.<00:26:05.200> I<00:26:05.520> think<00:26:05.600> it<00:26:05.760> would<00:26:05.919> be<00:26:06.080> very<00:26:06.480> interesting<00:26:07.600> uh<00:26:07.760> if<00:26:08.000> if<00:26:08.480> we<00:26:08.640> could<00:26:08.880> gather<00:26:09.279> more<00:26:09.520> data.

00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:13.679
But<00:26:11.200> let<00:26:11.440> me<00:26:11.600> just<00:26:11.840> say<00:26:12.080> this<00:26:12.480> from<00:26:12.799> the<00:26:12.960> outset.

00:26:13.679 --> 00:26:19.679
I<00:26:14.000> don't<00:26:14.159> think<00:26:14.320> that<00:26:14.640> you<00:26:14.960> or<00:26:15.279> anyone<00:26:15.679> else<00:26:16.000> who<00:26:16.240> doesn't<00:26:16.799> accept<00:26:17.200> the<00:26:17.520> afterlife<00:26:18.080> is<00:26:18.400> any<00:26:18.640> worse<00:26:19.039> for<00:26:19.279> it.

00:26:19.679 --> 00:26:22.640
<00:26:19.857> Yeah.<00:26:20.035> I<00:26:20.212> didn't<00:26:20.390> say<00:26:20.568> I<00:26:20.746> didn't<00:26:20.923> accept<00:26:21.101> an<00:26:21.279> afterlife.

00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.279
Be<00:26:22.799> very<00:26:23.120> careful<00:26:23.440> about<00:26:23.679> what<00:26:23.919> I<00:26:24.159> said<00:26:24.320> and<00:26:24.559> didn't<00:26:24.799> say.

00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:31.679
I<00:26:25.520> said<00:26:25.840> I<00:26:26.159> don't<00:26:26.880> accept<00:26:27.440> these<00:26:27.840> kinds<00:26:28.159> of<00:26:28.480> proofs<00:26:29.520> that<00:26:29.840> are<00:26:30.320> that<00:26:30.640> convince<00:26:31.039> me.

00:26:31.679 --> 00:26:35.120
I<00:26:32.000> didn't<00:26:32.240> say<00:26:32.480> that<00:26:32.720> I<00:26:32.960> don't<00:26:33.120> ac<00:26:33.520> I<00:26:33.760> don't<00:26:33.919> believe<00:26:34.159> in<00:26:34.320> an<00:26:34.480> afterlife.

00:26:35.120 --> 00:26:40.720
Therefore,<00:26:35.840> I'm<00:26:36.080> le,<00:26:36.320> I<00:26:36.559> have<00:26:36.640> an<00:26:36.799> open<00:26:37.200> issue,<00:26:37.520> and<00:26:37.760> there<00:26:38.000> may<00:26:38.159> be<00:26:38.320> other,<00:26:39.200> lots<00:26:39.440> of<00:26:39.600> other<00:26:39.760> things<00:26:39.919> that<00:26:40.080> we<00:26:40.240> could<00:26:40.400> discuss.

00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:45.440
We<00:26:40.880> could<00:26:41.039> have<00:26:41.120> a<00:26:41.279> whole<00:26:42.080> sequence<00:26:42.480> on<00:26:42.799> afterlife<00:26:43.360> and<00:26:43.679> different<00:26:43.919> ways<00:26:44.080> that<00:26:44.320> that<00:26:44.559> could<00:26:44.720> occur.

00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:51.919
So,<00:26:45.600> I'm<00:26:45.840> not<00:26:46.000> saying<00:26:46.159> that<00:26:46.400> at<00:26:46.559> all.<00:26:46.960> What<00:26:47.200> I<00:26:47.440> am<00:26:47.600> saying<00:26:47.840> is<00:26:48.080> being<00:26:48.240> very<00:26:48.559> rigorous<00:26:48.960> with<00:26:49.200> myself<00:26:49.600> because<00:26:49.760> I'd<00:26:50.000> like<00:26:50.159> there<00:26:50.320> to<00:26:50.480> be<00:26:50.559> an<00:26:50.720> afterlife.

00:26:51.919 --> 00:27:00.240
[Um],<00:26:52.400> you<00:26:52.559> know,<00:26:52.720> I,<00:26:52.960> I've<00:26:53.600> written<00:26:53.919> about<00:26:54.159> theories<00:26:54.559> of<00:26:54.799> consciousness<00:26:55.760> where,<00:26:56.240> where<00:26:56.559> I,<00:26:56.799> where<00:26:57.120> I<00:26:57.279> have<00:26:57.520> said<00:26:57.760> that<00:26:58.000> my<00:26:58.320> predilection<00:26:59.440> is<00:26:59.840> a<00:27:00.080> thought

00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:08.960
that<00:27:00.480> I<00:27:00.640> had<00:27:00.799> as<00:27:01.039> a<00:27:01.200> teenager,<00:27:02.240> that,<00:27:02.720> you<00:27:02.880> know,<00:27:03.039> should<00:27:03.279> the<00:27:03.520> universe<00:27:04.080> be<00:27:04.400> constructed<00:27:05.360> in<00:27:05.600> a<00:27:05.840> way<00:27:06.080> that<00:27:06.320> a<00:27:06.640> creature<00:27:07.120> like<00:27:07.520> us<00:27:08.640> who

00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:13.760
can<00:27:09.360> conceive<00:27:09.840> of<00:27:10.320> eternity,<00:27:11.600> be<00:27:11.840> denied<00:27:12.320> it?

00:27:13.760 --> 00:27:22.159
Was<00:27:14.185> the<00:27:14.611> universe<00:27:15.036> so<00:27:15.461> m,<00:27:15.886> malevolent<00:27:16.312> that<00:27:16.737> it<00:27:17.162> decided<00:27:17.587> to<00:27:18.013> create<00:27:18.438> beings<00:27:18.863> that<00:27:19.288> could<00:27:19.714> conceive<00:27:20.139> of<00:27:20.564> an,<00:27:20.989> of,<00:27:21.415> of<00:27:21.840> an

00:27:22.159 --> 00:27:25.520
eternity,<00:27:22.880> but<00:27:23.120> deny<00:27:23.600> that<00:27:23.840> creature<00:27:24.320> that<00:27:24.559> existence?

00:27:25.520 --> 00:27:29.919
Now,<00:27:25.760> that's<00:27:26.080> completely<00:27:27.120> nonrational<00:27:28.080> or<00:27:28.400> even<00:27:28.640> irrational.

00:27:29.919 --> 00:27:38.320
[Uh],<00:27:30.159> but<00:27:30.320> it's<00:27:30.480> an,<00:27:30.880> that's<00:27:31.919> an<00:27:32.320> emotional<00:27:33.120> feeling<00:27:33.440> that<00:27:33.760> I<00:27:34.000> have,<00:27:34.320> which<00:27:34.559> is<00:27:34.720> the<00:27:34.960> equivalent<00:27:35.840> of<00:27:36.240> your<00:27:37.279> experience<00:27:37.679> with<00:27:37.840> your<00:27:38.080> uncle

00:27:38.320 --> 00:27:46.720
Harry.<00:27:39.679> [Uh],<00:27:40.320> that<00:27:41.279> feeling,<00:27:41.760> it's,<00:27:41.919> it's<00:27:42.240> a,<00:27:42.480> it's<00:27:42.720> a<00:27:42.960> thought<00:27:43.520> experiment<00:27:44.159> that<00:27:44.799> has<00:27:45.039> had<00:27:45.279> an<00:27:45.440> emotional<00:27:46.000> effect<00:27:46.240> on<00:27:46.559> me

00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:50.080
since<00:27:46.960> I've<00:27:47.200> been<00:27:47.279> a<00:27:47.440> teenager,<00:27:48.400> and,<00:27:48.559> and<00:27:48.960> I<00:27:49.200> recognize<00:27:49.679> that.

00:27:50.080 --> 00:27:56.000
So<00:27:50.400> I<00:27:50.640> don't<00:27:50.720> want<00:27:50.880> to<00:27:50.960> be<00:27:51.120> fooled<00:27:51.520> by<00:27:51.760> that,<00:27:52.000> and<00:27:52.240> so<00:27:52.400> therefore<00:27:52.640> I<00:27:52.880> try<00:27:53.039> to<00:27:53.120> be<00:27:53.279> rigorous,<00:27:53.919> but<00:27:54.159> it<00:27:54.399> is<00:27:54.559> an<00:27:54.799> emotional<00:27:55.360> thing.

00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:59.200
[Uh],<00:27:56.240> and<00:27:56.480> so<00:27:56.640> I<00:27:56.960> understand<00:27:57.520> the<00:27:57.840> nature<00:27:58.240> of,<00:27:58.480> of<00:27:58.799> motion.

00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:06.159
I<00:27:59.440> just<00:27:59.520> want<00:27:59.679> to<00:27:59.840> be<00:28:00.240> very<00:28:00.640> tough-minded<00:28:01.440> on<00:28:01.840> all<00:28:02.080> of<00:28:02.240> the<00:28:02.480> different<00:28:02.799> kinds<00:28:03.120> of<00:28:03.279> proofs<00:28:04.000> and<00:28:04.320> what,<00:28:04.480> and<00:28:04.799> what<00:28:04.960> they<00:28:05.200> mean.

00:28:06.159 --> 00:28:14.799
Well,<00:28:06.399> I<00:28:06.720> think<00:28:07.679> your<00:28:08.159> desire<00:28:08.720> not<00:28:08.960> to<00:28:09.200> fool<00:28:09.600> yourself<00:28:10.000> is<00:28:10.240> one<00:28:10.480> that<00:28:10.720> I<00:28:10.960> feel<00:28:11.679> as,<00:28:12.159> as<00:28:12.559> well,<00:28:12.960> because<00:28:13.600> like<00:28:13.919> many<00:28:14.240> people,

00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:16.799
I<00:28:15.039> hope<00:28:15.279> there<00:28:15.520> is<00:28:15.679> an<00:28:15.919> afterlife,<00:28:16.559> right?

00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:25.840
I'm,<00:28:16.960> I'm<00:28:17.279> with<00:28:17.440> you.<00:28:18.880> I<00:28:19.279> do<00:28:19.760> hear<00:28:20.000> from<00:28:20.559> viewers<00:28:20.960> who<00:28:21.200> say<00:28:21.440> they<00:28:21.679> hope<00:28:21.919> there<00:28:22.159> isn't,<00:28:22.720> because<00:28:24.000> life<00:28:24.320> for<00:28:24.559> them,<00:28:24.960> any

00:28:25.840 --> 00:28:30.640
existence<00:28:26.480> is<00:28:26.799> too<00:28:27.120> painful,<00:28:28.159> [uh],<00:28:28.559> for<00:28:28.880> some<00:28:29.120> people.

00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:40.559
[Uh],<00:28:30.880> but<00:28:31.679> obviously,<00:28:32.559> one,<00:28:32.960> one<00:28:33.279> of<00:28:33.360> the<00:28:33.600> most<00:28:33.919> important<00:28:34.960> major<00:28:35.520> characteristics<00:28:36.399> of<00:28:36.720> being<00:28:36.960> a<00:28:37.200> human<00:28:37.440> is<00:28:37.679> the<00:28:38.000> capacity<00:28:38.480> for<00:28:38.799> self-deception

00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:48.640
and<00:28:41.279> I<00:28:41.600> think<00:28:42.000> anybody<00:28:43.600> in<00:28:43.919> the<00:28:44.080> field<00:28:44.320> of<00:28:44.480> parapsychology<00:28:45.600> has<00:28:45.919> to<00:28:46.080> be<00:28:46.320> particularly<00:28:47.360> wary<00:28:47.919> about<00:28:48.240> that.

00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:57.360
I<00:28:49.039> certainly<00:28:49.840> feel,<00:28:50.559> feel<00:28:50.880> that,<00:28:51.279> and<00:28:52.000> even<00:28:52.240> though<00:28:52.399> I<00:28:52.640> won<00:28:52.880> the<00:28:53.039> Bigelow<00:28:53.600> Prize,<00:28:55.120> some<00:28:55.360> of<00:28:55.440> my<00:28:55.679> colleagues<00:28:57.120> feel

00:28:57.360 --> 00:29:06.320
that,<00:28:58.159> you<00:28:58.320> know,<00:28:58.480> we,<00:28:58.720> we've<00:28:59.120> got<00:28:59.279> to<00:28:59.520> go<00:28:59.600> out<00:28:59.840> and,<00:29:00.080> and<00:29:00.720> campaign<00:29:01.279> and<00:29:01.840> point<00:29:02.080> out<00:29:02.320> that<00:29:02.640> anyone<00:29:02.960> who<00:29:03.200> disagrees<00:29:03.760> with<00:29:04.000> us<00:29:04.240> is<00:29:04.559> being<00:29:04.799> unscientific<00:29:05.840> and

00:29:06.320 --> 00:29:09.520
irrational,<00:29:07.120> and<00:29:07.520> I<00:29:07.840> can't<00:29:08.080> go<00:29:08.240> that<00:29:08.559> far.

00:29:09.520 --> 00:29:14.720
Yeah.<00:29:09.919> And<00:29:10.159> as<00:29:10.320> I<00:29:10.480> said,<00:29:10.720> I,<00:29:10.880> I<00:29:11.200> am<00:29:11.360> a<00:29:11.600> great<00:29:11.840> supporter<00:29:12.240> of<00:29:12.480> your<00:29:12.720> winning<00:29:13.039> that<00:29:13.679> with<00:29:14.000> your<00:29:14.320> paper.

00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:22.720
When<00:29:14.880> I<00:29:15.039> read<00:29:15.120> it,<00:29:15.360> it<00:29:15.600> was<00:29:15.679> just<00:29:15.919> so<00:29:16.159> obvious<00:29:16.480> because<00:29:16.720> it<00:29:16.960> was<00:29:17.120> such<00:29:17.440> a<00:29:17.679> good<00:29:18.399> organizational<00:29:19.360> structure<00:29:19.760> of<00:29:19.919> the<00:29:20.159> kinds<00:29:20.399> of<00:29:20.559> evidence<00:29:20.960> and<00:29:21.200> very,<00:29:21.520> very<00:29:21.840> useful.

00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:31.039
[Uh],<00:29:23.200> and<00:29:23.440> it's<00:29:23.600> very<00:29:23.840> useful<00:29:24.080> to<00:29:24.320> me<00:29:24.480> to<00:29:24.720> be<00:29:24.880> able<00:29:24.960> to<00:29:25.120> now<00:29:25.440> have<00:29:25.600> the,<00:29:26.320> the<00:29:26.720> road<00:29:26.960> map<00:29:27.120> to<00:29:27.360> be<00:29:27.520> able<00:29:27.679> to<00:29:27.840> critique<00:29:28.320> each<00:29:28.559> one,<00:29:29.279> because<00:29:29.520> I,<00:29:29.840> I,<00:29:29.919> I<00:29:30.240> didn't<00:29:30.399> even,<00:29:30.880> you

00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:34.799
know,<00:29:31.279> I,<00:29:31.440> I,<00:29:31.520> I,<00:29:31.679> I<00:29:32.480> would<00:29:32.640> confound<00:29:33.200> a<00:29:33.440> couple<00:29:33.520> of<00:29:33.679> these<00:29:33.919> as<00:29:34.080> you<00:29:34.320> pointed<00:29:34.640> out.

00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:38.880
I<00:29:35.256> got<00:29:35.714> near-after-death<00:29:36.171> communication<00:29:36.628> mixed<00:29:37.085> up<00:29:37.543> with<00:29:38.000> mediums.

00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:43.679
So,<00:29:39.039> I<00:29:39.200> shouldn't<00:29:39.440> do<00:29:39.520> that.<00:29:39.760> I<00:29:39.919> like<00:29:40.080> to<00:29:40.240> be<00:29:40.399> very<00:29:40.640> organized,<00:29:41.120> and<00:29:41.279> you've<00:29:41.520> done<00:29:41.679> a<00:29:41.840> terrific<00:29:42.240> job<00:29:42.720> in<00:29:43.039> doing<00:29:43.279> that.

00:29:43.679 --> 00:29:52.240
But<00:29:43.919> as<00:29:44.000> I<00:29:44.159> said,<00:29:44.320> it<00:29:44.480> gives<00:29:44.720> me<00:29:45.919> a,<00:29:46.000> a<00:29:46.240> roadmap<00:29:46.720> to<00:29:46.960> be<00:29:47.039> able<00:29:47.279> to<00:29:47.520> critique,<00:29:48.320> because<00:29:48.720> as<00:29:48.880> I<00:29:49.039> said,<00:29:49.279> I<00:29:49.520> want<00:29:49.679> the<00:29:49.919> result<00:29:50.240> to<00:29:50.399> be,<00:29:51.200> [uh],<00:29:51.600> as<00:29:51.919> you

00:29:52.240 --> 00:30:00.640
have<00:29:52.566> concluded,<00:29:52.893> and<00:29:53.219> I<00:29:53.545> have<00:29:53.872> my<00:29:54.198> own,<00:29:54.525> [uh],<00:29:54.851> emotional<00:29:55.177> reasons<00:29:55.504> where<00:29:55.830> I<00:29:56.156> believe<00:29:56.483> it<00:29:56.809> to<00:29:57.135> be<00:29:57.462> true,<00:29:57.788> but<00:29:58.114> I<00:29:58.441> don't<00:29:58.767> want,<00:29:59.094> you<00:29:59.420> know,<00:29:59.746> as<00:30:00.073> you,<00:30:00.399> as

00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:02.880
we<00:30:00.799> both<00:30:00.960> said,<00:30:01.200> we<00:30:01.360> don't<00:30:01.440> want<00:30:01.520> to<00:30:01.679> fool<00:30:01.919> ourselves.<00:30:02.559> All<00:30:02.640> right.

00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:10.240
The<00:30:03.039> next<00:30:03.279> category<00:30:04.000> is<00:30:04.720> reincarnation,<00:30:05.919> which,<00:30:06.240> of<00:30:06.399> course,<00:30:07.840> has<00:30:08.240> at<00:30:08.320> least<00:30:08.799> two<00:30:09.120> major<00:30:09.520> components.

00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:19.039
One<00:30:10.480> is<00:30:10.640> being<00:30:11.360> Eastern<00:30:11.840> religions,<00:30:12.720> Buddhism<00:30:13.679> and<00:30:14.480> Hinduism<00:30:15.039> first,<00:30:15.360> then<00:30:15.520> maybe<00:30:15.760> Buddhism<00:30:16.240> as<00:30:16.480> well,<00:30:16.960> that's<00:30:17.279> built<00:30:17.600> into<00:30:18.000> the<00:30:18.320> whole

00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:27.600
process<00:30:19.600> of,<00:30:20.159> [uh],<00:30:20.640> of<00:30:20.880> the<00:30:21.120> religious<00:30:21.600> belief,<00:30:22.240> and<00:30:22.480> the<00:30:22.640> second<00:30:23.200> are,<00:30:24.000> [um],<00:30:24.880> [um],<00:30:25.279> reports<00:30:25.760> that<00:30:26.320> are<00:30:26.640> anecdotal,<00:30:27.279> but

00:30:27.600 --> 00:30:36.159
have<00:30:27.840> been<00:30:28.080> compiled,<00:30:28.799> [uh],<00:30:29.360> particularly<00:30:30.240> University<00:30:30.640> of<00:30:31.200> Virginia,<00:30:32.159> [um],<00:30:32.880> the<00:30:33.440> department<00:30:33.840> of,<00:30:34.320> [uh],<00:30:34.799> of<00:30:35.039> perceptual<00:30:35.760> studies

00:30:36.159 --> 00:30:44.640
or<00:30:36.399> something,<00:30:36.960> DOPS,<00:30:37.279> they<00:30:37.440> call<00:30:37.600> it<00:30:37.679> DOPS<00:30:38.080> as<00:30:38.240> a<00:30:38.399> joke,<00:30:39.279> [um].<00:30:39.840> But<00:30:40.000> it's,<00:30:40.080> it's,<00:30:40.240> it's<00:30:40.640> a<00:30:40.799> very<00:30:41.520> detailed<00:30:42.320> organization<00:30:43.120> that<00:30:43.360> has<00:30:43.600> studied<00:30:44.240> children

00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:51.360
in<00:30:44.880> various<00:30:45.200> capacities.<00:30:45.679> Those<00:30:45.919> are<00:30:46.000> the<00:30:46.159> two<00:30:46.480> kinds<00:30:46.960> of<00:30:47.600> reincarnation<00:30:49.200> categories<00:30:50.320> that<00:30:50.559> I<00:30:50.799> see.

00:30:51.360 --> 00:30:59.840
Yeah.<00:30:52.000> And<00:30:52.240> there's<00:30:52.559> a<00:30:52.720> third<00:30:53.600> category<00:30:54.240> which<00:30:54.480> would<00:30:54.720> be<00:30:54.880> adults<00:30:55.360> who<00:30:55.679> have<00:30:56.320> spontaneous<00:30:57.279> memories<00:30:57.760> of<00:30:58.080> past<00:30:58.480> lives<00:30:58.880> that<00:30:59.440> they're

00:30:59.840 --> 00:31:02.640
then<00:31:00.080> able<00:31:00.320> to<00:31:00.559> verify.<00:31:01.840> Okay.

00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:09.279
[Um],<00:31:03.200> and<00:31:03.919> [um],<00:31:04.720> how<00:31:06.080> strongly<00:31:06.880> do<00:31:07.039> you<00:31:07.200> think<00:31:07.440> that<00:31:07.840> evidence<00:31:08.480> is?

00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:17.840
And<00:31:10.080> if<00:31:10.399> that<00:31:10.799> is<00:31:11.200> true,<00:31:12.399> does,<00:31:13.679> is,<00:31:14.000> is<00:31:14.240> your<00:31:14.720> use<00:31:15.039> of<00:31:15.360> reincarnation<00:31:16.559> as<00:31:16.960> an<00:31:17.279> arrow

00:31:17.840 --> 00:31:28.240
to,<00:31:18.399> to<00:31:19.039> defend<00:31:19.520> the<00:31:19.760> thesis<00:31:20.159> that<00:31:20.480> there<00:31:20.720> is<00:31:20.880> a<00:31:21.120> post-mortem,<00:31:22.480> [uh],<00:31:22.720> afterlife<00:31:23.840> dependent<00:31:25.039> on<00:31:25.760> the<00:31:26.559> reincarnation?

00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:36.960
In<00:31:28.399> other<00:31:28.559> words,<00:31:28.799> if<00:31:29.039> it<00:31:29.200> were<00:31:29.440> true<00:31:30.000> that<00:31:30.240> there<00:31:30.399> is<00:31:30.559> an<00:31:30.720> afterlife,<00:31:31.440> does<00:31:31.600> that<00:31:31.840> mean<00:31:32.480> you<00:31:32.799> are<00:31:33.039> a<00:31:33.360> believer<00:31:33.840> in<00:31:34.320> reincarnation,<00:31:35.279> which<00:31:35.520> is<00:31:35.600> a<00:31:35.840> very<00:31:36.000> particular<00:31:36.640> kind

00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:40.399
of,<00:31:37.360> of<00:31:37.679> afterlife<00:31:38.240> that<00:31:38.480> I<00:31:38.640> don't<00:31:38.799> particularly<00:31:39.279> like?

00:31:40.399 --> 00:31:48.399
I<00:31:40.559> mean,<00:31:40.720> if<00:31:40.880> I'm<00:31:41.039> given<00:31:41.200> a<00:31:41.440> choice,<00:31:42.320> I'd<00:31:42.559> like<00:31:42.720> there<00:31:42.880> to<00:31:43.039> be<00:31:43.120> an<00:31:43.279> afterlife,<00:31:43.919> but<00:31:44.159> if<00:31:44.399> given<00:31:44.559> a<00:31:44.720> choice<00:31:44.960> of<00:31:45.120> the<00:31:45.279> kind<00:31:45.519> of<00:31:45.679> afterlife,<00:31:46.960> reincarnation<00:31:47.760> would<00:31:48.000> not<00:31:48.240> be

00:31:48.399 --> 00:31:56.799
top<00:31:48.720> on<00:31:48.960> my<00:31:49.120> list.<00:31:50.399> Well,<00:31:50.720> I'm<00:31:50.960> under<00:31:51.200> the<00:31:51.440> impression<00:31:52.000> that,<00:31:52.640> [uh],<00:31:53.360> if<00:31:53.600> we<00:31:53.840> were<00:31:54.000> to<00:31:54.159> talk<00:31:54.399> about<00:31:54.720> the<00:31:54.960> afterlife,<00:31:55.679> there<00:31:55.840> are<00:31:56.000> probably<00:31:56.399> different

00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:01.760
options.<00:31:57.360> And<00:31:57.519> I<00:31:57.760> would<00:31:57.919> consider<00:31:58.399> reincarnation<00:31:59.360> to<00:31:59.600> be<00:32:00.080> one<00:32:00.399> of<00:32:00.559> those<00:32:00.880> options.

00:32:01.760 --> 00:32:05.200
We<00:32:02.000> don't<00:32:02.159> know<00:32:02.399> that<00:32:02.880> everybody<00:32:03.919> reincarnates.

00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:13.440
What<00:32:05.360> we<00:32:05.600> do<00:32:05.760> know<00:32:06.559> is<00:32:06.880> that,<00:32:07.600> let's<00:32:07.840> take<00:32:08.080> the<00:32:08.399> University<00:32:08.880> of<00:32:09.120> Virginia<00:32:10.000> DOPS<00:32:10.559> program<00:32:11.039> as<00:32:11.360> an<00:32:11.519> example,<00:32:12.640> that,<00:32:13.279> [uh],

00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:17.840
they<00:32:13.760> have<00:32:13.919> about<00:32:14.480> 2,500<00:32:15.840> cases<00:32:16.640> in<00:32:16.960> their<00:32:17.279> database.

00:32:17.840 --> 00:32:26.159
They're<00:32:18.480> doing<00:32:18.880> computer<00:32:19.440> analysis<00:32:20.080> of<00:32:20.320> each<00:32:20.480> of<00:32:20.640> these<00:32:20.960> cases,<00:32:21.840> and<00:32:22.159> roughly<00:32:23.279> 12,300<00:32:24.799> of<00:32:25.120> them<00:32:25.360> are<00:32:25.600> what<00:32:25.840> they

00:32:26.159 --> 00:32:34.640
regard<00:32:26.720> as<00:32:27.200> solved.<00:32:28.240> These<00:32:28.559> are<00:32:28.799> cases<00:32:29.360> where<00:32:29.919> a<00:32:30.240> young<00:32:30.559> child,<00:32:31.120> typically,<00:32:32.480> [uh],<00:32:32.799> four<00:32:32.960> or<00:32:33.120> five<00:32:33.440> years<00:32:33.760> old,<00:32:34.159> sometimes

00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:43.200
as<00:32:34.880> soon<00:32:35.039> as<00:32:35.120> they<00:32:35.360> can<00:32:35.600> begin<00:32:35.840> to<00:32:36.080> speak,<00:32:36.960> start<00:32:37.679> talking<00:32:38.240> about<00:32:38.880> a<00:32:39.279> previous<00:32:40.000> life<00:32:40.640> that<00:32:40.880> they<00:32:41.200> remember<00:32:41.760> having<00:32:42.159> lived.

00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:51.760
And<00:32:43.440> the<00:32:43.679> solved<00:32:44.240> cases<00:32:44.720> are<00:32:45.039> ones<00:32:45.360> in<00:32:45.600> which<00:32:45.760> a<00:32:46.000> researcher<00:32:47.039> gets<00:32:47.360> on<00:32:47.600> the<00:32:47.760> scene,<00:32:48.080> is<00:32:48.320> able<00:32:48.559> to<00:32:49.200> record<00:32:50.320> all<00:32:50.559> the<00:32:50.799> statements<00:32:51.440> made

00:32:51.760 --> 00:32:59.519
by<00:32:52.000> the<00:32:52.240> young<00:32:52.559> child,<00:32:53.519> and<00:32:53.760> then<00:32:54.559> is<00:32:54.880> able<00:32:55.279> to<00:32:56.080> locate<00:32:56.880> a

00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:03.120
situation<00:33:00.320> that<00:33:00.720> matches<00:33:01.600> that<00:33:02.000> description.

00:33:03.120 --> 00:33:09.200
Typically,<00:33:03.679> what<00:33:03.919> happens<00:33:04.399> then<00:33:04.640> is<00:33:04.960> the<00:33:05.200> young<00:33:05.440> child<00:33:05.919> is<00:33:06.240> brought<00:33:06.960> over<00:33:07.600> to<00:33:08.000> that<00:33:08.480> location.

00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:15.600
The<00:33:09.519> child<00:33:09.840> may<00:33:10.159> interact<00:33:10.720> with<00:33:11.039> the<00:33:11.600> people<00:33:11.919> there,<00:33:12.240> the<00:33:12.799> relatives<00:33:13.360> of<00:33:13.600> the<00:33:14.080> previous<00:33:14.720> person.

00:33:15.600 --> 00:33:24.399
Sometimes<00:33:16.159> the<00:33:16.480> child<00:33:16.799> is<00:33:17.120> so<00:33:17.519> convincing<00:33:18.559> that<00:33:18.880> the<00:33:19.120> relatives<00:33:19.679> of<00:33:20.000> the<00:33:20.240> previous<00:33:20.720> person<00:33:21.840> acknowledge<00:33:22.559> that<00:33:22.799> this<00:33:23.120> is<00:33:23.440> their<00:33:23.840> deceased

00:33:24.399 --> 00:33:32.880
loved<00:33:24.559> one.<00:33:25.679> [Uh],<00:33:26.559> [uh],<00:33:26.880> sometimes<00:33:28.080> what<00:33:28.399> we<00:33:28.640> find<00:33:28.880> in,<00:33:29.039> in<00:33:29.440> some<00:33:29.679> of<00:33:29.760> the<00:33:29.919> strongest<00:33:30.480> cases,<00:33:30.880> and<00:33:31.200> this<00:33:31.360> is<00:33:31.679> quite<00:33:32.080> interesting<00:33:32.559> because

00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:42.000
it<00:33:33.120> is<00:33:33.279> physical<00:33:33.840> evidence<00:33:34.720> of<00:33:34.960> a<00:33:35.200> kind<00:33:36.240> that<00:33:36.720> the<00:33:37.039> death<00:33:37.600> wounds<00:33:38.480> of<00:33:38.799> the<00:33:39.120> previous<00:33:39.600> person<00:33:40.080> will<00:33:40.399> correspond<00:33:41.360> to

00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:48.240
birthmarks<00:33:42.640> and<00:33:42.960> sometimes<00:33:43.360> even<00:33:43.760> physical<00:33:44.240> deformities<00:33:45.440> of<00:33:45.679> the<00:33:45.919> young<00:33:46.159> child.

00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:55.200
Well,<00:33:48.720> you<00:33:48.880> know,<00:33:49.039> I've,<00:33:49.279> I've<00:33:49.519> heard<00:33:49.840> all<00:33:50.240> the<00:33:50.480> anecdotes,<00:33:51.039> and<00:33:51.679> you<00:33:51.840> know,<00:33:52.080> as<00:33:52.240> I<00:33:52.399> said,<00:33:52.559> I<00:33:52.799> try<00:33:52.960> to<00:33:53.039> keep<00:33:53.200> an<00:33:53.360> open<00:33:53.600> mind,<00:33:53.840> and,<00:33:54.080> and,<00:33:54.320> and<00:33:54.480> look<00:33:54.640> at<00:33:54.799> all<00:33:54.880> of<00:33:54.960> them.

00:33:55.200 --> 00:34:03.360
I<00:33:55.519> still<00:33:55.679> go<00:33:55.919> back<00:33:56.080> to,<00:33:56.559> [uh],<00:33:57.120> the<00:33:57.519> denominator<00:33:58.240> of<00:33:58.559> all<00:33:58.720> the<00:33:58.960> different<00:33:59.279> things<00:33:59.600> that<00:34:00.000> would<00:34:00.320> be<00:34:00.480> strange<00:34:00.799> if<00:34:01.039> they<00:34:01.279> happened,<00:34:01.519> that<00:34:01.760> did<00:34:01.919> not<00:34:02.159> happen,<00:34:02.960> in<00:34:03.200> which

00:34:03.360 --> 00:34:08.079
you<00:34:03.600> need<00:34:03.919> towers<00:34:04.399> of<00:34:05.039> exponents<00:34:05.519> to<00:34:05.679> even<00:34:05.919> describe<00:34:06.399> those<00:34:06.720> number<00:34:06.960> of<00:34:07.200> cases.

00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:17.040
[Um],<00:34:08.800> and<00:34:09.119> so,<00:34:10.240> [uh],<00:34:10.399> if<00:34:10.639> I<00:34:10.800> look<00:34:10.960> at,<00:34:11.280> you<00:34:11.440> know,<00:34:12.240> a<00:34:12.399> couple<00:34:12.560> thousand<00:34:14.000> examples<00:34:14.720> out<00:34:14.960> of,<00:34:15.359> [uh],<00:34:15.599> you<00:34:15.679> know,<00:34:15.839> how<00:34:16.000> many,<00:34:16.879> you

00:34:17.040 --> 00:34:26.000
know,<00:34:17.919> trillion,<00:34:19.200> how<00:34:19.359> many<00:34:19.839> hundred<00:34:20.240> billion<00:34:20.800> people<00:34:21.200> in<00:34:21.440> terms<00:34:21.679> of<00:34:21.839> human<00:34:22.159> history,<00:34:22.560> and,<00:34:23.520> [um],<00:34:24.720> if,<00:34:24.879> if<00:34:25.200> reincarnation

00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:32.240
were<00:34:26.240> real,<00:34:27.200> and<00:34:28.000> I<00:34:28.240> mean,<00:34:28.399> it's<00:34:28.560> a<00:34:28.720> process<00:34:28.960> that<00:34:29.200> has<00:34:29.440> to,<00:34:29.919> you<00:34:30.159> can't<00:34:30.399> just<00:34:30.560> say<00:34:30.800> a<00:34:31.040> few<00:34:31.200> people<00:34:31.440> reincarnated.

00:34:32.240 --> 00:34:38.960
I<00:34:32.564> guess<00:34:32.889> you<00:34:33.213> could,<00:34:33.538> but<00:34:33.862> the<00:34:34.186> religions<00:34:34.511> at<00:34:34.835> least<00:34:35.159> that<00:34:35.484> teach<00:34:35.808> this<00:34:36.133> as<00:34:36.457> a<00:34:36.781> principle<00:34:37.106> say<00:34:37.430> that<00:34:37.755> everybody<00:34:38.079> reincarnates.

00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:41.679
It's,<00:34:39.200> you<00:34:39.280> know,<00:34:39.359> it's<00:34:39.599> not<00:34:39.839> like<00:34:40.159> you<00:34:40.399> have<00:34:40.560> a<00:34:40.720> choice.

00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:46.560
Oh,<00:34:41.839> there<00:34:42.079> probably<00:34:42.320> some<00:34:42.639> sects<00:34:42.960> of<00:34:43.119> Hinduism<00:34:43.599> in<00:34:43.839> which<00:34:44.000> you<00:34:44.159> do<00:34:44.320> have<00:34:44.399> a<00:34:44.560> choice,<00:34:44.800> but<00:34:45.040> that's,<00:34:45.280> that's<00:34:45.599> different.

00:34:46.560 --> 00:34:52.240
There<00:34:46.800> variations<00:34:47.440> in<00:34:47.679> all<00:34:47.839> different<00:34:48.079> kinds<00:34:48.320> of<00:34:48.560> religions,<00:34:48.960> views,<00:34:49.280> but<00:34:49.599> most<00:34:49.760> of<00:34:49.919> them<00:34:50.079> have<00:34:50.320> everybody<00:34:50.720> going<00:34:50.960> through<00:34:51.200> the<00:34:51.440> process.

00:34:52.240 --> 00:34:59.680
But,<00:34:52.513> but,<00:34:52.785> what,<00:34:53.058> what,<00:34:53.330> what,<00:34:53.603> what<00:34:53.875> you'd<00:34:54.148> have<00:34:54.420> to<00:34:54.693> conclude<00:34:54.966> is<00:34:55.238> that<00:34:55.511> even<00:34:55.783> if<00:34:56.056> billions<00:34:56.328> of<00:34:56.601> people<00:34:56.873> go<00:34:57.146> through<00:34:57.419> the<00:34:57.691> process,<00:34:57.964> only<00:34:58.236> these<00:34:58.509> very<00:34:58.781> few,<00:34:59.054> just<00:34:59.326> a<00:34:59.599> few

00:34:59.680 --> 00:35:04.320
thou,<00:35:00.000> just<00:35:00.160> a<00:35:00.320> th,<00:35:00.640> few<00:35:00.800> thousand,<00:35:01.839> you<00:35:02.079> know,<00:35:02.320> kind<00:35:02.560> of<00:35:02.720> remember<00:35:03.200> anything.

00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:06.400
Well,<00:35:04.560> I<00:35:04.800> think<00:35:04.960> I<00:35:05.200> would<00:35:05.359> view<00:35:05.599> it<00:35:05.839> differently.

00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:14.960
I<00:35:06.640> would<00:35:06.880> say,<00:35:07.520> [uh],<00:35:08.079> that<00:35:08.800> what<00:35:09.119> we<00:35:09.359> have<00:35:09.599> is<00:35:10.720> a<00:35:11.440> database<00:35:12.079> of<00:35:12.720> 2,500<00:35:14.000> instances<00:35:14.720> in

00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:20.079
which<00:35:15.200> young<00:35:15.599> children<00:35:16.560> began<00:35:17.119> describing<00:35:18.640> a<00:35:19.040> previous<00:35:19.520> life.

00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:29.119
[Uh],<00:35:20.560> it's<00:35:20.960> important<00:35:21.280> that<00:35:21.520> they're<00:35:21.920> young<00:35:22.240> children<00:35:22.720> because<00:35:23.359> they<00:35:23.680> wouldn't<00:35:24.000> have<00:35:24.240> had<00:35:24.480> the<00:35:24.800> opportunity<00:35:25.520> to<00:35:26.240> read<00:35:26.560> history<00:35:27.040> books,<00:35:27.520> and,<00:35:27.839> and<00:35:28.640> other

00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:35.359
other<00:35:29.520> sorts<00:35:29.760> of<00:35:30.000> influences<00:35:30.800> that<00:35:31.520> might<00:35:32.400> affect<00:35:33.119> their<00:35:33.440> descriptions.

00:35:35.359 --> 00:35:43.280
And<00:35:36.160> of<00:35:36.480> those<00:35:37.119> 2,500<00:35:38.079> cases,<00:35:38.720> roughly<00:35:39.839> 45%<00:35:41.119> or<00:35:41.359> so<00:35:42.000> have<00:35:42.320> been<00:35:42.640> confirmed.

00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:45.839
And<00:35:43.440> I<00:35:43.599> don't,<00:35:43.839> wouldn't<00:35:44.079> call<00:35:44.320> them<00:35:44.640> anecdotes<00:35:45.359> either.

00:35:45.839 --> 00:35:48.960
I<00:35:46.079> would<00:35:46.240> call<00:35:46.400> them<00:35:46.720> case<00:35:47.040> studies.<00:35:48.640> Yeah.

00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:56.240
Okay.<00:35:49.280> I<00:35:49.440> mean<00:35:49.520> that,<00:35:49.760> that's<00:35:50.000> fair.<00:35:50.160> I<00:35:50.400> mean,<00:35:50.480> I<00:35:50.640> respect<00:35:50.880> the<00:35:51.119> people<00:35:51.359> there,<00:35:51.680> a<00:35:51.839> couple<00:35:52.000> of,<00:35:52.240> [f],<00:35:52.560> you<00:35:52.640> know,<00:35:52.800> friends,<00:35:53.040> and<00:35:53.280> I<00:35:53.520> respect<00:35:53.920> them<00:35:54.480> highly<00:35:54.960> in<00:35:55.280> terms<00:35:55.440> of<00:35:55.680> the<00:35:55.920> work.

00:35:56.240 --> 00:36:00.640
I'm<00:35:56.400> just<00:35:56.560> trying<00:35:56.800> to<00:35:56.960> put<00:35:57.119> it<00:35:57.280> in<00:35:57.440> a,<00:35:57.839> in<00:35:58.079> a<00:35:58.320> broader,<00:35:59.200> [uh],<00:35:59.440> broader<00:35:59.839> perspective.

00:36:00.640 --> 00:36:09.440
I<00:36:00.880> mean,<00:36:01.040> in<00:36:01.200> terms<00:36:01.440> of<00:36:01.599> children,<00:36:02.640> [uh],<00:36:02.800> we<00:36:03.119> know,<00:36:04.000> [uh],<00:36:04.400> [uh],<00:36:04.720> the<00:36:05.040> false<00:36:05.520> memory,<00:36:06.320> [uh],<00:36:06.640> [uh],<00:36:06.800> syndrome<00:36:07.520> that<00:36:07.839> has<00:36:08.079> been<00:36:08.240> used<00:36:08.560> in,<00:36:09.200> [um],

00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:12.480
sexual<00:36:09.839> abuse,<00:36:10.640> [um],<00:36:10.960> accusations.

00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:21.040
And,<00:36:13.200> [uh],<00:36:13.359> I<00:36:13.680> don't<00:36:13.760> know,<00:36:14.240> I'm<00:36:14.560> not<00:36:14.720> terribly<00:36:15.200> familiar<00:36:15.440> with<00:36:15.599> the<00:36:15.760> data,<00:36:15.920> but<00:36:16.160> there<00:36:16.400> are,<00:36:17.200> [um],<00:36:18.000> there<00:36:18.320> are,<00:36:18.880> [uh],<00:36:19.280> defenses<00:36:20.240> that<00:36:20.720> show

00:36:21.040 --> 00:36:29.440
that<00:36:21.839> the,<00:36:22.240> the,<00:36:22.400> the<00:36:23.280> child<00:36:23.839> really<00:36:24.240> believes<00:36:24.880> there<00:36:25.119> was<00:36:25.520> this<00:36:25.760> sexual<00:36:26.160> abuse,<00:36:26.720> and<00:36:26.960> it<00:36:27.200> really<00:36:27.440> is<00:36:27.680> a<00:36:28.000> false<00:36:28.320> memory.

00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:37.839
[Uh],<00:36:29.599> and,<00:36:29.760> and<00:36:30.079> this<00:36:30.320> is<00:36:30.480> a,<00:36:30.800> a,<00:36:31.520> [uh],<00:36:32.240> I'm<00:36:32.480> sure<00:36:32.640> there<00:36:32.880> are<00:36:33.440> real<00:36:33.680> abuses,<00:36:34.480> and<00:36:34.720> so<00:36:34.960> it's,<00:36:35.119> it's<00:36:35.599> challenging<00:36:36.560> in<00:36:36.800> a,<00:36:37.200> in<00:36:37.359> a<00:36:37.520> legal

00:36:37.839 --> 00:36:46.640
case<00:36:38.160> to,<00:36:38.880> [uh],<00:36:39.520> [uh],<00:36:39.760> distinguish<00:36:40.320> between<00:36:40.640> the<00:36:40.880> two,<00:36:41.440> but<00:36:41.760> arguments<00:36:42.560> conflate<00:36:43.040> those.<00:36:43.440> The<00:36:43.760> false<00:36:44.160> memory<00:36:44.720> syndrome<00:36:45.200> is<00:36:45.839> unrelated

00:36:46.640 --> 00:36:54.800
to<00:36:47.111> the<00:36:47.581> reincarnation<00:36:48.052> cases.<00:36:48.522> Well,<00:36:48.993> it,<00:36:49.464> it's,<00:36:49.934> it's,<00:36:50.405> it's<00:36:50.875> unrelated<00:36:51.346> superficially,<00:36:51.816> but<00:36:52.287> it's<00:36:52.758> related<00:36:53.228> structurally<00:36:53.699> in<00:36:54.169> the<00:36:54.640> sense

00:36:54.800 --> 00:37:02.960
that<00:36:55.359> it<00:36:55.599> is<00:36:55.839> a,<00:36:56.480> it<00:36:56.800> is<00:36:56.960> a<00:36:57.599> belief.<00:36:57.920> The<00:36:58.240> child<00:36:58.400> who<00:36:58.640> has<00:36:58.960> the<00:36:59.119> false<00:36:59.359> memory<00:36:59.599> is<00:36:59.839> not,<00:37:00.560> is<00:37:00.880> not<00:37:01.119> lying<00:37:01.520> in<00:37:01.760> the<00:37:01.920> sense<00:37:02.079> that<00:37:02.240> they<00:37:02.480> know<00:37:02.560> it<00:37:02.800> to

00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:05.200
be<00:37:03.040> false.<00:37:03.440> They<00:37:03.680> believe<00:37:03.920> it<00:37:04.079> to<00:37:04.320> be<00:37:04.480> true.

00:37:05.200 --> 00:37:13.119
So<00:37:05.359> it's<00:37:05.599> the<00:37:05.760> same<00:37:06.000> sort,<00:37:06.320> it's<00:37:06.560> a,<00:37:06.720> it's<00:37:06.880> a,<00:37:07.119> it's<00:37:07.359> a<00:37:07.599> belief<00:37:07.839> that<00:37:08.079> a<00:37:08.320> young<00:37:08.560> child<00:37:08.960> has<00:37:10.000> that<00:37:10.400> is<00:37:10.720> caused<00:37:11.119> by<00:37:11.440> something<00:37:11.680> that's<00:37:12.000> non-veridical.

00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:21.839
In<00:37:13.359> a,<00:37:13.599> in<00:37:13.839> a<00:37:14.079> false<00:37:14.560> memory<00:37:15.040> sexual<00:37:15.359> abuse<00:37:16.079> case,<00:37:16.720> the<00:37:16.960> memory<00:37:17.920> which<00:37:18.160> they<00:37:18.480> really<00:37:18.800> believe<00:37:19.599> is<00:37:20.000> not,<00:37:20.240> ver,<00:37:20.560> it's<00:37:20.800> not<00:37:21.119> true.

00:37:21.839 --> 00:37:26.000
Many<00:37:22.160> cases<00:37:22.480> it<00:37:22.640> is<00:37:22.880> true,<00:37:23.680> and,<00:37:23.839> and<00:37:24.240> the<00:37:24.480> people<00:37:24.640> should<00:37:24.880> be<00:37:24.960> punished,<00:37:25.359> obviously.

00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:33.200
[Uh],<00:37:26.258> but<00:37:26.516> in<00:37:26.773> some<00:37:27.031> cases<00:37:27.289> it's<00:37:27.547> not<00:37:27.804> true.<00:37:28.062> I'm<00:37:28.320> saying<00:37:28.578> whatever<00:37:28.836> caused<00:37:29.093> that<00:37:29.351> not-true<00:37:29.609> false<00:37:29.867> memory<00:37:30.124> in<00:37:30.382> a<00:37:30.640> sexual<00:37:30.898> abuse<00:37:31.156> case<00:37:31.413> for<00:37:31.671> a<00:37:31.929> child<00:37:32.187> could<00:37:32.444> have,<00:37:32.702> it<00:37:32.960> could

00:37:33.200 --> 00:37:41.680
be<00:37:33.280> the<00:37:33.520> same<00:37:33.680> mechanism<00:37:34.240> that<00:37:34.560> causes<00:37:35.359> some<00:37:35.599> sort<00:37:35.839> of<00:37:36.000> a,<00:37:36.480> a,<00:37:37.200> [um],<00:37:38.000> a<00:37:38.240> vision,<00:37:38.640> or<00:37:38.960> some<00:37:39.200> sort<00:37:39.359> of<00:37:39.440> a<00:37:39.599> thing<00:37:40.160> that,<00:37:41.280> [um],

00:37:41.680 --> 00:37:50.240
in<00:37:42.800> the<00:37:43.040> cases<00:37:43.440> where<00:37:43.680> it<00:37:43.839> has<00:37:44.079> no<00:37:44.320> relationship<00:37:44.800> to<00:37:45.040> anything,<00:37:45.680> wouldn't<00:37:46.079> be<00:37:46.320> counted<00:37:47.200> because<00:37:47.520> it<00:37:47.760> wouldn't<00:37:48.079> be<00:37:48.160> part<00:37:48.400> of<00:37:48.480> the,<00:37:48.640> of<00:37:48.880> the,<00:37:49.040> of<00:37:49.280> the<00:37:49.520> equation<00:37:50.000> because

00:37:50.240 --> 00:37:57.040
it,<00:37:50.560> it,<00:37:50.800> it<00:37:51.119> wouldn't<00:37:51.359> work.<00:37:51.599> So<00:37:51.760> it's<00:37:52.000> a,<00:37:52.400> it's<00:37:52.720> a<00:37:52.960> sense<00:37:53.200> of,<00:37:53.680> [uh],<00:37:54.079> artificially<00:37:54.960> seeking<00:37:55.520> false<00:37:55.920> positives.

00:37:57.040 --> 00:38:05.440
Well,<00:37:57.760> but<00:37:58.079> the<00:37:58.400> database<00:37:59.040> includes,<00:38:00.320> as<00:38:00.560> I<00:38:00.720> say,<00:38:00.960> about<00:38:01.599> 1,300<00:38:02.640> cases<00:38:03.040> of<00:38:03.520> young<00:38:03.920> children<00:38:04.640> who<00:38:05.040> report

00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:10.400
these<00:38:05.839> memories,<00:38:06.240> and<00:38:06.560> there<00:38:06.800> was<00:38:06.960> no,<00:38:08.240> [uh],<00:38:08.560> ability<00:38:09.119> to<00:38:09.440> validate<00:38:09.920> it.

00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:13.280
So,<00:38:11.119> [uh],<00:38:11.359> they<00:38:11.680> are<00:38:11.760> in<00:38:11.920> the<00:38:12.160> database.

00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:22.240
Okay.<00:38:13.638> All<00:38:13.997> right.<00:38:14.355> [Uh],<00:38:14.713> so<00:38:15.071> I,<00:38:15.430> I,<00:38:15.788> we,<00:38:16.146> we<00:38:16.504> have<00:38:16.863> this<00:38:17.221> understanding<00:38:17.579> that<00:38:17.937> this<00:38:18.296> is<00:38:18.654> a,<00:38:19.012> an<00:38:19.370> arrow,<00:38:19.729> and<00:38:20.087> we<00:38:20.445> have<00:38:20.803> some<00:38:21.162> debate<00:38:21.520> about

00:38:22.240 --> 00:38:30.960
its,<00:38:22.480> its,<00:38:23.040> [uh],<00:38:23.440> its<00:38:23.839> importance,<00:38:24.560> but<00:38:24.800> it's<00:38:25.040> there,<00:38:25.359> and<00:38:25.599> it<00:38:25.760> should<00:38:25.920> be<00:38:26.079> there,<00:38:26.320> and<00:38:26.560> I<00:38:26.800> agree,<00:38:27.040> and<00:38:27.440> you<00:38:27.520> know,<00:38:27.680> many<00:38:28.000> people<00:38:28.240> believe<00:38:28.480> this,<00:38:28.720> so<00:38:28.960> I'm,<00:38:29.359> I,<00:38:29.440> I,<00:38:29.599> I<00:38:30.240> support

00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:35.440
very<00:38:31.280> strongly<00:38:31.680> support<00:38:32.079> your<00:38:32.400> putting<00:38:32.640> it<00:38:32.800> there,<00:38:33.119> and,<00:38:33.359> and<00:38:33.920> discussing<00:38:34.320> it.

00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:43.920
Then<00:38:35.680> the<00:38:35.920> next<00:38:36.320> question<00:38:36.560> on<00:38:36.880> that<00:38:37.119> is,<00:38:37.680> started<00:38:38.000> to<00:38:38.160> ask<00:38:38.400> before,<00:38:39.359> is<00:38:39.599> that<00:38:40.000> if<00:38:40.320> this<00:38:40.640> is<00:38:41.040> real,<00:38:41.359> and<00:38:41.599> these<00:38:41.920> children<00:38:42.320> are<00:38:42.720> real,<00:38:43.040> and,<00:38:43.200> and<00:38:43.520> that's

00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:52.800
and<00:38:44.160> those<00:38:44.560> 1,300<00:38:44.960> cases<00:38:45.440> are<00:38:45.760> real,<00:38:46.320> and<00:38:46.560> there<00:38:46.880> really<00:38:47.200> was<00:38:47.520> this<00:38:48.000> reincarnation<00:38:49.040> effect,<00:38:50.160> does<00:38:50.400> that<00:38:50.720> mean<00:38:51.119> that<00:38:51.440> the<00:38:51.680> afterlife<00:38:52.480> has

00:38:52.800 --> 00:39:01.520
to<00:38:53.040> be<00:38:53.599> a<00:38:53.920> reincarnation?<00:38:55.599> Because<00:38:55.839> if<00:38:56.079> you're<00:38:56.240> using<00:38:56.560> the<00:38:56.800> data<00:38:57.599> of<00:38:57.920> reincarnation<00:38:58.800> to<00:38:59.040> confirm<00:38:59.440> the<00:38:59.680> afterlife,<00:39:01.280> then

00:39:01.520 --> 00:39:08.960
I<00:39:01.839> think<00:39:02.000> you're<00:39:02.320> forced<00:39:02.640> to<00:39:02.880> say,<00:39:03.119> then<00:39:03.359> the<00:39:03.520> after,<00:39:03.920> if<00:39:04.079> you're<00:39:04.240> using<00:39:04.480> the<00:39:04.640> data,<00:39:05.040> then<00:39:05.280> you're<00:39:05.440> forced<00:39:05.680> to<00:39:05.839> say<00:39:06.000> the<00:39:06.160> afterlife<00:39:07.119> is<00:39:07.440> a<00:39:07.680> reincarnation.

00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:13.280
It's<00:39:09.200> not<00:39:09.440> a,<00:39:10.960> you<00:39:11.119> know,<00:39:11.440> Abrahamic<00:39:12.160> religion<00:39:12.640> heaven.

00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:17.440
It's<00:39:13.599> not,<00:39:14.079> [uh],<00:39:14.560> you<00:39:14.720> know,<00:39:14.960> some<00:39:15.200> other<00:39:15.599> kind<00:39:15.920> of<00:39:16.160> experience.

00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:23.440
It's<00:39:17.760> not<00:39:18.079> an<00:39:19.760> idealism<00:39:21.680> kind<00:39:21.920> of<00:39:22.079> blending<00:39:22.480> into<00:39:22.800> the<00:39:23.040> reality.

00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:29.680
It<00:39:23.680> is<00:39:23.839> a<00:39:24.000> reincarnation.<00:39:25.119> If<00:39:25.359> you're<00:39:25.520> using<00:39:25.760> the<00:39:25.920> data<00:39:26.240> to<00:39:26.400> confirm<00:39:26.720> the<00:39:26.960> afterlife,<00:39:27.920> it's<00:39:28.160> not<00:39:28.320> just<00:39:28.560> those<00:39:29.040> 1,300.

00:39:29.680 --> 00:39:33.599
It<00:39:29.920> has<00:39:30.079> to<00:39:30.240> be<00:39:30.400> everybody<00:39:31.760> because<00:39:32.000> that's<00:39:32.320> reality.

00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:42.480
Well,<00:39:34.160> I<00:39:34.640> think<00:39:34.880> we<00:39:35.359> have<00:39:35.599> another<00:39:36.400> source<00:39:36.800> of<00:39:37.119> data<00:39:38.240> that<00:39:38.880> also<00:39:39.280> has<00:39:39.520> to<00:39:39.680> be<00:39:39.920> taken<00:39:40.240> into<00:39:40.640> account,<00:39:40.960> and<00:39:41.200> it's<00:39:41.520> not<00:39:41.760> really

00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:48.400
part<00:39:42.720> of<00:39:42.880> my<00:39:43.280> essay<00:39:43.599> because<00:39:44.400> I<00:39:44.720> don't<00:39:44.880> think<00:39:45.119> of<00:39:45.280> it<00:39:45.440> as,<00:39:46.079> [uh],<00:39:46.560> valid<00:39:47.200> experimental<00:39:47.920> data.

00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:54.560
But<00:39:48.560> there<00:39:48.720> are<00:39:49.040> reports<00:39:51.119> coming<00:39:51.440> through<00:39:52.079> mediumship,<00:39:52.960> automatic<00:39:53.599> writing.

00:39:54.560 --> 00:40:03.440
Wonderful<00:39:55.040> example<00:39:55.599> is<00:39:55.839> the<00:39:56.079> case<00:39:56.240> of<00:39:56.480> Frederick<00:39:56.960> Myers<00:39:57.440> who<00:39:58.079> died<00:39:58.400> in<00:39:58.720> 1902<00:39:59.599> as<00:39:59.839> I<00:40:00.079> recall<00:40:00.560> and<00:40:00.960> wrote<00:40:01.280> the<00:40:01.520> great<00:40:01.760> book<00:40:02.160> Human<00:40:02.560> Personality

00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:06.400
and<00:40:03.599> Its<00:40:04.160> Survival<00:40:04.720> of<00:40:04.960> Bodily<00:40:05.520> Death.

00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:15.760
Some<00:40:06.880> 30<00:40:07.280> years<00:40:07.760> after<00:40:08.240> his<00:40:08.560> death,<00:40:09.119> a<00:40:10.320> medium,<00:40:10.880> an<00:40:11.119> automatic<00:40:11.839> writer<00:40:12.320> in<00:40:12.720> England<00:40:13.119> named<00:40:13.440> Geraldine<00:40:14.240> Cummins<00:40:14.880> began

00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:23.200
transcribing<00:40:16.800> books<00:40:17.440> about<00:40:17.760> the<00:40:18.079> afterlife<00:40:18.960> supposedly<00:40:19.680> being<00:40:20.320> dictated<00:40:20.960> to<00:40:21.280> her<00:40:21.760> by<00:40:22.160> Myers.

00:40:23.200 --> 00:40:31.520
And<00:40:23.440> he<00:40:23.760> describes<00:40:24.320> a<00:40:24.640> very<00:40:24.960> complex<00:40:25.920> picture<00:40:26.720> in<00:40:26.960> in<00:40:27.359> that<00:40:27.599> book<00:40:27.839> that<00:40:28.079> could<00:40:28.320> include<00:40:28.800> reincarnation<00:40:30.000> as<00:40:30.320> an<00:40:30.560> option<00:40:31.200> but

00:40:31.520 --> 00:40:40.079
many<00:40:31.839> other<00:40:32.079> options<00:40:32.640> as<00:40:32.960> well.<00:40:33.920> So<00:40:34.079> in<00:40:34.240> other<00:40:34.320> words,<00:40:34.800> in<00:40:34.960> other<00:40:35.040> words,<00:40:35.280> you're<00:40:35.520> saying<00:40:35.680> that<00:40:36.240> metaphysically,<00:40:37.280> yeah,<00:40:37.520> that<00:40:37.760> it<00:40:38.000> is<00:40:38.240> possible<00:40:38.720> for<00:40:39.040> reincarnation

00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:48.800
to<00:40:40.400> be<00:40:41.359> uh<00:40:41.680> real<00:40:42.079> in<00:40:42.400> terms<00:40:42.560> of<00:40:42.720> these<00:40:42.960> cases,<00:40:43.760> but<00:40:44.079> not<00:40:44.720> necessarily<00:40:45.680> be<00:40:45.920> the<00:40:46.240> default<00:40:47.520> um<00:40:48.079> automatic

00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:52.800
structure<00:40:49.119> that<00:40:49.359> we<00:40:49.599> all<00:40:50.560> we<00:40:50.800> all<00:40:51.359> go<00:40:51.599> through<00:40:52.480> that.

00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:58.000
Yes.<00:40:53.040> And<00:40:53.280> if<00:40:53.440> you<00:40:53.599> dig<00:40:53.839> more<00:40:54.079> deeply<00:40:54.480> into<00:40:54.800> the<00:40:54.960> folklore,<00:40:55.599> you'll<00:40:55.839> see<00:40:56.000> this<00:40:56.240> is<00:40:56.319> a<00:40:56.560> very<00:40:56.880> hot<00:40:57.200> issue.

00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:01.839
There<00:40:58.160> are<00:40:58.720> groups<00:40:59.040> of<00:40:59.280> people<00:40:59.520> who<00:40:59.760> say<00:41:00.079> reincarnation<00:41:00.960> is<00:41:01.200> a<00:41:01.440> trap.

00:41:01.839 --> 00:41:04.880
Don't<00:41:02.160> let<00:41:02.400> them<00:41:02.720> tell<00:41:02.880> you<00:41:03.200> to<00:41:03.920> reincarnate.

00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:08.720
You<00:41:05.040> don't<00:41:05.280> have<00:41:05.520> to.<00:41:06.758> [laughter]<00:41:08.400> Okay.

00:41:08.720 --> 00:41:13.119
Well,<00:41:08.880> as<00:41:09.040> I<00:41:09.200> said,<00:41:09.440> that<00:41:09.599> would<00:41:09.760> not<00:41:09.920> be<00:41:10.079> my<00:41:10.319> f<00:41:10.640> my<00:41:10.800> my<00:41:11.040> first<00:41:11.280> choice<00:41:12.640> at<00:41:12.880> all.

00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:15.760
It<00:41:13.280> wouldn't<00:41:13.520> be<00:41:13.599> on<00:41:13.839> my<00:41:14.000> list<00:41:14.240> of<00:41:14.720> good<00:41:15.040> things<00:41:15.200> to<00:41:15.440> do.

00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:22.400
The<00:41:15.989> next<00:41:16.217> uh<00:41:16.446> in<00:41:16.674> your<00:41:16.903> list,<00:41:17.131> I<00:41:17.360> want<00:41:17.589> to<00:41:17.817> go<00:41:18.046> through<00:41:18.274> all<00:41:18.503> of<00:41:18.731> them<00:41:18.960> at<00:41:19.189> least<00:41:19.417> quickly<00:41:19.646> because<00:41:19.874> I<00:41:20.103> think<00:41:20.331> it's<00:41:20.560> very<00:41:20.789> important<00:41:21.017> that<00:41:21.246> you've<00:41:21.474> uh<00:41:21.703> um<00:41:21.931> organized<00:41:22.160> this

00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:30.560
so<00:41:22.560> well,<00:41:23.040> is<00:41:23.200> what<00:41:23.440> you<00:41:23.599> talked<00:41:23.839> about<00:41:24.000> before,<00:41:24.319> the<00:41:24.560> peak<00:41:24.880> in<00:41:25.119> Darien<00:41:25.680> experiences<00:41:26.480> where<00:41:26.960> where<00:41:27.599> as<00:41:27.839> you<00:41:28.000> describe<00:41:28.240> it,<00:41:28.480> do<00:41:28.560> you<00:41:28.720> you<00:41:28.800> you<00:41:29.520> see<00:41:29.680> at<00:41:29.839> the<00:41:30.000> moment<00:41:30.319> that

00:41:30.560 --> 00:41:34.960
somebody<00:41:31.200> of<00:41:31.440> importance<00:41:31.839> to<00:41:32.079> you<00:41:32.319> or

00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:43.280
someone<00:41:35.341> you<00:41:35.722> didn't<00:41:36.103> know<00:41:36.484> was<00:41:36.865> going<00:41:37.246> to<00:41:37.627> be<00:41:38.008> dead<00:41:38.389> and<00:41:38.770> you<00:41:39.150> and<00:41:39.531> you<00:41:39.912> have<00:41:40.293> an<00:41:40.674> an<00:41:41.055> out-of-body<00:41:41.436> experience,<00:41:41.817> a<00:41:42.198> near-death<00:41:42.579> experience,<00:41:42.960> a

00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:52.400
deathbed<00:41:43.920> vision<00:41:44.720> in<00:41:45.040> which<00:41:45.920> for<00:41:46.079> example<00:41:46.480> in<00:41:46.720> a<00:41:46.880> deathbed<00:41:47.440> vision<00:41:48.240> uh<00:41:48.720> it's<00:41:49.040> often<00:41:49.520> reported<00:41:50.079> that<00:41:50.400> one's<00:41:51.200> deceased<00:41:51.760> relatives

00:41:52.400 --> 00:42:00.800
are<00:41:52.640> coming<00:41:52.880> to<00:41:53.119> greet<00:41:53.359> you<00:41:53.599> to<00:41:53.839> help<00:41:54.000> you<00:41:54.240> cross<00:41:54.560> over<00:41:55.200> to<00:41:55.440> the<00:41:55.680> other<00:41:55.920> side<00:41:56.319> and<00:41:56.560> then<00:41:56.800> people<00:41:57.040> say<00:41:57.359> but<00:41:57.599> wait<00:41:58.240> there's<00:41:58.720> my<00:41:59.359> uh<00:41:59.760> sister<00:42:00.240> but<00:42:00.480> she's

00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:09.280
not<00:42:01.040> dead<00:42:01.520> she's<00:42:01.839> still<00:42:02.079> alive<00:42:02.960> and<00:42:03.200> then<00:42:03.680> we<00:42:03.920> learn<00:42:04.240> that<00:42:04.480> the<00:42:04.800> sister<00:42:05.280> actually<00:42:05.760> did<00:42:06.000> die<00:42:06.400> but<00:42:06.640> the<00:42:06.880> knowledge<00:42:07.280> of<00:42:07.520> that<00:42:07.760> death<00:42:08.319> had<00:42:08.640> been<00:42:08.800> hidden

00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:17.839
because<00:42:09.520> they<00:42:09.760> didn't<00:42:10.000> want<00:42:10.160> to<00:42:10.319> disturb<00:42:11.119> the<00:42:11.359> dying<00:42:11.920> person<00:42:12.400> with<00:42:12.720> that<00:42:13.040> information<00:42:13.839> so<00:42:14.480> The<00:42:14.800> phrase<00:42:15.200> peak<00:42:15.520> in<00:42:15.760> Darien<00:42:16.720> it<00:42:16.960> comes<00:42:17.280> from

00:42:17.839 --> 00:42:22.240
the<00:42:18.160> Spanish<00:42:18.720> explorers.<00:42:19.440> I<00:42:19.680> think<00:42:19.760> it<00:42:20.000> was<00:42:20.319> a<00:42:20.560> poem<00:42:20.880> by<00:42:21.119> John<00:42:21.520> Keats.

00:42:22.240 --> 00:42:31.040
The<00:42:22.480> Spanish<00:42:23.119> explorers<00:42:23.839> who<00:42:24.160> first<00:42:25.280> visited<00:42:26.079> Panama,<00:42:26.560> the<00:42:26.800> Isthmus<00:42:27.280> of<00:42:27.680> Panama<00:42:28.160> and<00:42:28.480> climbed<00:42:28.800> a<00:42:29.040> peak<00:42:29.280> in<00:42:29.520> the<00:42:30.560> area

00:42:31.040 --> 00:42:39.599
known<00:42:31.280> as<00:42:31.520> Darien.<00:42:32.160> When<00:42:32.319> they<00:42:32.480> got<00:42:32.640> to<00:42:32.880> the<00:42:33.040> top<00:42:33.599> of<00:42:33.760> the<00:42:34.000> peak,<00:42:34.640> they<00:42:34.960> thought<00:42:35.200> they<00:42:35.599> were<00:42:35.839> were<00:42:36.000> in<00:42:36.240> a<00:42:36.400> new<00:42:36.560> continent,<00:42:37.119> but<00:42:37.760> instead<00:42:38.240> they<00:42:38.640> saw<00:42:38.880> the<00:42:39.119> Pacific

00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:44.640
Ocean<00:42:40.000> on<00:42:40.319> the<00:42:40.480> other<00:42:40.800> side.<00:42:41.680> So<00:42:41.920> they're<00:42:42.240> surprised<00:42:42.880> by<00:42:43.119> what<00:42:43.440> they<00:42:43.680> discover.

00:42:44.640 --> 00:42:48.560
Yeah.<00:42:45.040> Interesting.<00:42:45.520> All<00:42:45.599> right.<00:42:45.839> Next<00:42:46.079> one<00:42:46.240> is<00:42:46.480> possession.

00:42:48.560 --> 00:42:52.240
This<00:42:48.880> is<00:42:49.040> a<00:42:49.440> very<00:42:50.000> fascinating<00:42:50.960> area.

00:42:52.240 --> 00:42:57.520
Cases<00:42:52.640> of<00:42:52.960> possession<00:42:53.599> as<00:42:54.000> described<00:42:54.880> in<00:42:55.200> the<00:42:55.359> parapsychology<00:42:56.640> literature.

00:42:57.520 --> 00:43:00.800
We're<00:42:57.760> not<00:42:58.000> talking<00:42:58.319> about<00:42:58.720> demonic<00:42:59.680> possession<00:43:00.240> here.

00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:08.000
That's<00:43:01.359> something<00:43:01.760> different.<00:43:02.640> This<00:43:02.960> would<00:43:03.200> be<00:43:03.280> a<00:43:03.520> case<00:43:03.920> where<00:43:05.040> and<00:43:05.280> there<00:43:05.440> are<00:43:05.599> some<00:43:05.760> famous<00:43:06.160> cases<00:43:06.560> in<00:43:06.880> the<00:43:07.040> literature.

00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:13.119
A<00:43:08.240> living<00:43:08.720> person<00:43:10.079> gets<00:43:10.800> ill<00:43:11.520> and<00:43:11.839> is<00:43:12.079> thought<00:43:12.319> to<00:43:12.560> be<00:43:12.720> dead.

00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:21.359
One<00:43:13.280> of<00:43:13.359> the<00:43:13.520> most<00:43:13.760> famous<00:43:14.160> cases<00:43:15.040> occurred<00:43:15.440> in<00:43:15.760> India<00:43:16.960> and<00:43:17.520> the<00:43:17.839> family<00:43:18.160> is<00:43:18.480> getting<00:43:18.800> ready<00:43:19.040> to<00:43:19.359> cremate<00:43:20.240> the<00:43:20.560> the<00:43:21.040> body.

00:43:21.359 --> 00:43:29.440
It<00:43:21.680> looks<00:43:21.920> like,<00:43:22.319> you<00:43:22.480> know,<00:43:22.640> the<00:43:22.880> person<00:43:23.119> has<00:43:23.440> died<00:43:24.160> when<00:43:24.480> all<00:43:24.720> of<00:43:24.800> a<00:43:24.960> sudden<00:43:25.760> the<00:43:26.720> dead<00:43:27.440> person,<00:43:27.920> the<00:43:28.160> daughter<00:43:28.400> of<00:43:28.640> the<00:43:28.880> family,<00:43:29.359> for

00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:33.200
example,<00:43:30.480> sits<00:43:30.880> up<00:43:31.599> and<00:43:32.079> says,<00:43:32.319> "Wait,<00:43:32.720> wait,<00:43:32.880> wait.

00:43:33.200 --> 00:43:41.920
I'm<00:43:33.440> alive."<00:43:34.560> But<00:43:35.040> speaks<00:43:35.440> a<00:43:35.680> different<00:43:35.920> language<00:43:37.520> and<00:43:38.400> uh<00:43:39.200> even<00:43:39.599> comes<00:43:39.920> from<00:43:40.079> a<00:43:40.319> different<00:43:40.560> time<00:43:40.960> period<00:43:41.440> and

00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:46.000
doesn't<00:43:42.400> recognize<00:43:43.040> anybody<00:43:43.520> in<00:43:43.839> the<00:43:44.000> family.

00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:53.839
uh<00:43:46.319> is<00:43:47.040> unfamiliar<00:43:47.760> with<00:43:48.160> the<00:43:48.560> normal<00:43:49.119> tasks<00:43:50.000> that<00:43:50.319> they're<00:43:50.640> supposed<00:43:50.960> to<00:43:51.119> do<00:43:51.359> now<00:43:51.599> that<00:43:51.839> they're<00:43:52.079> alive<00:43:52.400> and<00:43:52.880> up<00:43:53.119> and<00:43:53.359> about.

00:43:53.839 --> 00:44:02.319
For<00:43:54.000> example,<00:43:55.119> uh<00:43:55.280> in<00:43:55.599> in<00:43:56.000> one<00:43:56.319> well-known<00:43:56.960> case,<00:43:57.680> the<00:43:58.720> we'll<00:43:59.040> call<00:43:59.119> it<00:43:59.280> the<00:43:59.520> possessed<00:44:00.079> person<00:44:00.800> spoke<00:44:01.119> a<00:44:01.359> different<00:44:01.599> language<00:44:02.000> and

00:44:02.319 --> 00:44:08.400
came<00:44:02.560> from<00:44:02.800> a<00:44:02.960> culture,<00:44:03.920> a<00:44:04.160> nearby<00:44:04.720> culture<00:44:05.119> in<00:44:05.440> India,<00:44:05.839> but<00:44:06.160> about<00:44:06.400> a<00:44:06.560> hundred<00:44:06.960> years<00:44:07.359> earlier.

00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:17.200
so<00:44:09.359> uh<00:44:09.839> didn't<00:44:10.240> understand<00:44:10.960> the<00:44:11.200> more<00:44:11.520> modern<00:44:12.000> appliances<00:44:13.119> that<00:44:13.440> the<00:44:13.680> family<00:44:14.079> had<00:44:14.400> and<00:44:14.720> and<00:44:15.119> also<00:44:15.520> came<00:44:15.760> from<00:44:16.000> a<00:44:16.160> higher<00:44:16.560> caste

00:44:17.200 --> 00:44:23.680
and<00:44:17.440> and<00:44:17.839> look<00:44:18.079> down<00:44:18.319> on<00:44:18.560> these<00:44:18.960> family<00:44:19.680> members<00:44:20.160> as<00:44:20.560> being<00:44:20.960> you<00:44:21.119> know<00:44:21.280> unworthy<00:44:22.000> lower<00:44:22.480> caste<00:44:23.200> people.

00:44:23.680 --> 00:44:32.240
It<00:44:23.920> was<00:44:24.000> a<00:44:24.240> different<00:44:24.560> personality<00:44:25.839> completely<00:44:26.560> and<00:44:26.960> linguists<00:44:27.520> were<00:44:27.760> brought<00:44:28.000> in<00:44:28.240> and<00:44:28.800> studied<00:44:29.280> the<00:44:29.760> uh<00:44:30.240> differences<00:44:30.720> in<00:44:31.040> language<00:44:31.359> and<00:44:31.680> determined

00:44:32.240 --> 00:44:40.960
yes<00:44:32.720> this<00:44:33.040> person<00:44:33.280> is<00:44:33.599> speaking<00:44:34.319> a<00:44:34.640> different<00:44:34.880> language<00:44:35.280> I<00:44:35.520> think<00:44:35.599> was<00:44:35.839> Bengali<00:44:36.560> in<00:44:36.880> in<00:44:37.119> this<00:44:37.280> case<00:44:37.599> and<00:44:37.920> speaking<00:44:38.319> it<00:44:38.640> in<00:44:38.880> a<00:44:39.040> way<00:44:39.200> that<00:44:39.520> was<00:44:39.760> a<00:44:39.920> hundred<00:44:40.160> or<00:44:40.480> 200

00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:45.359
years<00:44:41.599> earlier<00:44:42.240> and<00:44:42.400> and<00:44:43.280> describe<00:44:43.839> themselves<00:44:44.480> the<00:44:44.800> same<00:44:44.960> way.

00:44:45.359 --> 00:44:53.520
So<00:44:45.599> there<00:44:46.160> there<00:44:46.480> are<00:44:46.640> a<00:44:46.800> handful<00:44:47.280> of<00:44:47.760> these<00:44:48.160> cases,<00:44:48.800> maybe<00:44:49.119> about<00:44:49.359> a<00:44:49.599> dozen<00:44:50.640> in<00:44:50.880> the<00:44:51.119> literature<00:44:52.160> that<00:44:52.960> appear<00:44:53.359> to

00:44:53.520 --> 00:45:03.040
be<00:44:54.640> a<00:44:54.960> case<00:44:55.200> where<00:44:55.599> one<00:44:56.079> personality<00:44:57.040> leaves<00:44:57.599> but<00:44:57.839> the<00:44:58.079> body<00:44:58.319> is<00:44:58.640> still<00:44:59.200> sufficiently<00:45:00.079> warm<00:45:00.560> that<00:45:01.119> uh<00:45:01.440> another<00:45:02.560> separate

00:45:03.040 --> 00:45:09.839
entity<00:45:03.839> is<00:45:04.240> able<00:45:04.560> to<00:45:05.280> enter<00:45:05.599> the<00:45:05.920> body<00:45:06.319> and<00:45:06.800> use<00:45:07.119> it<00:45:07.359> for<00:45:07.599> a<00:45:07.839> period<00:45:08.160> of<00:45:08.400> time.

00:45:09.839 --> 00:45:17.839
Okay.<00:45:10.160> and<00:45:10.240> and<00:45:10.319> and<00:45:10.880> again<00:45:11.200> this<00:45:11.359> is<00:45:11.520> one<00:45:11.760> of<00:45:11.920> the<00:45:12.480> arrows<00:45:12.960> that<00:45:13.119> you're<00:45:13.440> using<00:45:14.000> and<00:45:14.400> you<00:45:14.880> we<00:45:15.200> can<00:45:15.440> have<00:45:15.680> you<00:45:15.839> know<00:45:16.000> lots<00:45:16.319> of<00:45:16.400> discussions<00:45:16.800> about<00:45:17.119> what<00:45:17.280> these<00:45:17.599> few

00:45:17.839 --> 00:45:26.319
cases<00:45:18.240> mean<00:45:18.400> or<00:45:18.640> what<00:45:18.800> they<00:45:19.200> how<00:45:19.440> could<00:45:19.599> they<00:45:19.760> be<00:45:19.920> interpreted<00:45:20.480> but<00:45:21.040> um<00:45:21.760> you<00:45:21.920> know<00:45:22.240> certainly<00:45:22.640> if<00:45:22.880> if<00:45:23.200> what<00:45:23.440> you<00:45:23.599> say<00:45:23.760> is<00:45:24.000> true<00:45:24.240> it's<00:45:24.560> a<00:45:24.960> data<00:45:25.359> points<00:45:25.599> to<00:45:25.839> consider.

00:45:26.319 --> 00:45:31.040
Next<00:45:26.560> is<00:45:27.119> uh<00:45:27.599> instrumental<00:45:28.640> transcommunication.

00:45:31.040 --> 00:45:36.560
So<00:45:31.520> phone<00:45:32.000> calls<00:45:32.400> like<00:45:32.720> phone<00:45:33.040> calls<00:45:33.440> from<00:45:33.680> the<00:45:33.839> dead<00:45:34.160> a<00:45:34.400> text<00:45:34.640> message<00:45:35.040> from<00:45:35.280> the<00:45:35.440> dead.

00:45:36.560 --> 00:45:42.960
Uh,<00:45:36.960> I've<00:45:37.280> never<00:45:37.440> had<00:45:37.680> one<00:45:37.839> of<00:45:38.000> those.<00:45:38.400> Um,<00:45:38.880> but<00:45:39.839> I<00:45:40.160> haven't<00:45:40.480> either,<00:45:40.880> but<00:45:41.359> it's<00:45:41.680> a<00:45:42.000> vast<00:45:42.400> area.

00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:52.400
There<00:45:43.119> are<00:45:43.280> probably<00:45:44.319> 10<00:45:44.880> 20,000<00:45:46.240> amateur<00:45:46.800> hobbyists<00:45:47.920> who<00:45:48.160> are<00:45:48.800> working<00:45:49.119> in<00:45:49.440> this<00:45:49.680> area

00:45:52.400 --> 00:46:01.040
and<00:45:53.119> many<00:45:53.520> examples<00:45:54.319> that<00:45:54.720> have<00:45:55.040> been<00:45:55.520> published<00:45:56.400> in<00:45:56.800> the<00:45:57.040> literature<00:45:57.680> of<00:45:58.079> instances<00:45:58.720> of<00:45:59.119> communication<00:46:00.079> coming<00:46:00.480> across

00:46:01.040 --> 00:46:06.160
on<00:46:01.839> uh<00:46:02.000> tape<00:46:02.400> recorders,<00:46:03.200> telephones,<00:46:04.640> televisions.

00:46:06.160 --> 00:46:15.520
Uh<00:46:06.640> sometimes<00:46:07.200> the<00:46:07.839> tape<00:46:08.160> recorders<00:46:08.720> and<00:46:09.040> televisions<00:46:10.000> are<00:46:10.800> disconnected<00:46:11.520> from<00:46:11.920> batteries<00:46:13.280> or<00:46:13.680> unplugged<00:46:14.480> completely.

00:46:15.520 --> 00:46:18.800
Sometimes<00:46:16.160> pictures<00:46:16.720> appear<00:46:17.040> on<00:46:17.280> a<00:46:17.520> TV<00:46:17.920> screen.

00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:22.880
Uh<00:46:19.200> sometimes<00:46:19.680> the<00:46:19.920> communication<00:46:20.640> is<00:46:21.200> back<00:46:21.440> and<00:46:21.680> forth.

00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:31.280
uh<00:46:23.280> an<00:46:23.599> interesting<00:46:24.160> paper<00:46:24.640> was<00:46:25.040> published<00:46:25.680> in<00:46:26.400> uh<00:46:27.200> forget<00:46:27.599> the<00:46:27.760> name<00:46:27.920> of<00:46:28.079> the<00:46:28.240> journal<00:46:28.560> but<00:46:28.800> it<00:46:29.040> was<00:46:29.280> conducted<00:46:29.839> by<00:46:30.160> a<00:46:30.640> a<00:46:30.880> very

00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:39.760
respected<00:46:31.920> person<00:46:32.319> a<00:46:32.480> former<00:46:32.960> Portuguese<00:46:33.680> diplomat<00:46:34.319> who<00:46:34.640> got<00:46:35.119> deeply<00:46:35.680> involved<00:46:36.240> in<00:46:36.480> this<00:46:36.800> Anabela<00:46:37.440> Cardoso<00:46:38.640> who<00:46:38.880> did<00:46:39.119> a<00:46:39.359> study

00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:44.240
in<00:46:40.079> a<00:46:40.319> an<00:46:40.560> acoustical<00:46:41.359> laboratory<00:46:42.640> in<00:46:43.440> Spain.

00:46:44.240 --> 00:46:47.680
So<00:46:44.640> it<00:46:44.880> it<00:46:45.280> was<00:46:45.920> um<00:46:47.119> sealed.

00:46:47.680 --> 00:46:53.440
External<00:46:48.319> radio<00:46:49.119> communications<00:46:50.079> couldn't<00:46:50.480> penetrate<00:46:51.359> the<00:46:51.920> uh<00:46:52.160> laboratory.

00:46:53.440 --> 00:47:02.160
And<00:46:53.680> she<00:46:54.319> uh<00:46:54.560> was<00:46:55.040> witnessed<00:46:55.599> by<00:46:56.000> researchers<00:46:56.720> having<00:46:57.040> two-way<00:46:58.079> conversations<00:46:59.119> over<00:47:00.000> uh<00:47:00.160> a<00:47:00.480> radio<00:47:00.880> that<00:47:01.200> was<00:47:01.359> only<00:47:01.680> capable

00:47:02.160 --> 00:47:11.760
of<00:47:02.480> receiving<00:47:03.200> static.<00:47:04.640> Uh<00:47:05.839> so<00:47:07.280> there<00:47:07.920> if<00:47:08.319> you<00:47:08.560> can<00:47:08.800> turn<00:47:08.960> on<00:47:09.680> um<00:47:10.240> popular

00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:20.720
television<00:47:12.149> programs,<00:47:12.537> ghost<00:47:12.926> hunter<00:47:13.314> type<00:47:13.703> programs<00:47:14.091> and<00:47:14.480> and<00:47:14.869> [clears<00:47:15.257> throat]<00:47:15.646> see<00:47:16.034> that<00:47:16.423> they<00:47:16.811> use<00:47:17.200> this<00:47:17.589> kind<00:47:17.977> of<00:47:18.366> technology<00:47:18.754> uh<00:47:19.143> a<00:47:19.531> lot<00:47:19.920> and

00:47:20.720 --> 00:47:29.200
report<00:47:21.119> on<00:47:21.359> it<00:47:22.000> frequently<00:47:23.119> typically<00:47:23.680> in<00:47:24.000> unscientific<00:47:25.119> conditions<00:47:25.760> but<00:47:26.240> at<00:47:26.319> least<00:47:26.800> one<00:47:27.119> good<00:47:27.520> scientific<00:47:28.160> paper<00:47:28.880> has

00:47:29.200 --> 00:47:38.640
been<00:47:29.440> published.<00:47:30.880> Um<00:47:31.280> I<00:47:31.520> I<00:47:31.760> had<00:47:31.920> a<00:47:32.079> skeptic<00:47:32.480> at<00:47:32.800> one<00:47:32.960> point,<00:47:33.359> a<00:47:33.520> very<00:47:33.839> smart<00:47:34.400> fellow,<00:47:34.960> very<00:47:35.680> who<00:47:36.319> who<00:47:36.640> said<00:47:36.960> that<00:47:37.920> even

00:47:38.640 --> 00:47:47.440
I<00:47:39.119> if<00:47:39.839> these<00:47:40.319> cases<00:47:40.800> are<00:47:41.040> real,<00:47:42.960> he<00:47:43.280> said,<00:47:43.520> I<00:47:43.760> would<00:47:43.920> think<00:47:44.160> it<00:47:44.480> more<00:47:44.880> likely<00:47:45.920> that<00:47:46.240> it<00:47:46.560> not<00:47:46.880> be

00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:55.839
proof<00:47:47.680> of<00:47:47.839> an<00:47:48.000> afterlife,<00:47:49.119> but<00:47:49.440> it<00:47:49.680> would<00:47:49.839> be<00:47:50.640> uh<00:47:51.200> some<00:47:51.599> extraterrestrial<00:47:52.880> super<00:47:53.280> intelligent<00:47:54.160> spacecraft<00:47:55.119> that<00:47:55.359> we<00:47:55.599> can

00:47:55.839 --> 00:48:00.400
see<00:47:56.480> that's<00:47:56.800> just<00:47:57.040> having<00:47:57.359> fun<00:47:58.000> by<00:47:58.400> manipulating<00:47:59.119> some<00:47:59.440> brains.

00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:03.119
and<00:48:00.720> just<00:48:01.200> making<00:48:01.520> it<00:48:01.760> make<00:48:02.000> people<00:48:02.319> think<00:48:02.560> that<00:48:02.800> way.

00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:05.440
He<00:48:03.359> said,<00:48:03.440> "I<00:48:03.680> would<00:48:03.760> think<00:48:03.920> that<00:48:04.240> now<00:48:04.480> I<00:48:04.640> don't<00:48:04.800> believe<00:48:04.960> it<00:48:05.119> at<00:48:05.280> all."

00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:13.599
He<00:48:05.680> would<00:48:05.839> say,<00:48:06.079> "But<00:48:06.480> if<00:48:06.640> it<00:48:06.880> were<00:48:07.040> true,<00:48:07.280> and<00:48:07.440> I'm<00:48:07.680> wrong,<00:48:08.480> the<00:48:08.800> explanation<00:48:09.760> would<00:48:10.079> not<00:48:10.319> be<00:48:10.480> an<00:48:10.720> afterlife,<00:48:11.760> but<00:48:12.000> it<00:48:12.160> would<00:48:12.319> be<00:48:12.480> something<00:48:13.440> of

00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:15.599
a<00:48:13.839> very<00:48:14.240> highly<00:48:14.880> physical<00:48:15.280> thing."

00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:19.200
He<00:48:15.839> was<00:48:16.240> he<00:48:16.480> was<00:48:16.640> being<00:48:16.880> hyperbolic<00:48:17.520> to<00:48:17.680> to<00:48:18.000> make<00:48:18.160> a<00:48:18.400> point.

00:48:19.200 --> 00:48:28.400
Uh<00:48:19.599> but<00:48:19.839> but<00:48:20.160> he<00:48:20.319> he<00:48:20.560> would<00:48:20.720> say<00:48:20.800> that<00:48:20.960> an<00:48:21.119> afterlife,<00:48:21.760> a<00:48:22.000> non-physical<00:48:22.640> existence<00:48:23.280> is<00:48:23.599> so<00:48:23.920> impossibly<00:48:25.359> unlikely<00:48:26.559> that<00:48:27.359> um

00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:37.119
an<00:48:28.720> such<00:48:28.960> an<00:48:29.200> extreme<00:48:30.319> explanation<00:48:31.760> uh<00:48:32.000> of<00:48:32.160> of<00:48:32.559> a<00:48:33.200> an<00:48:33.520> advanced<00:48:33.920> civilization<00:48:34.640> just<00:48:35.119> playing<00:48:35.520> games<00:48:36.000> with<00:48:36.319> some<00:48:36.640> people

00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:45.280
just<00:48:37.359> for<00:48:37.520> their<00:48:37.760> amusement.<00:48:38.319> Like<00:48:38.559> you<00:48:38.880> you<00:48:39.200> might<00:48:40.880> keep<00:48:41.200> a<00:48:41.920> a<00:48:42.160> toy<00:48:42.480> away<00:48:42.720> from<00:48:42.880> a<00:48:43.119> dog<00:48:43.280> and<00:48:43.520> just<00:48:43.680> play<00:48:43.839> with<00:48:44.000> the<00:48:44.240> dog<00:48:44.400> a<00:48:44.640> little<00:48:44.720> bit<00:48:44.880> just<00:48:45.119> for

00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:50.400
fun.<00:48:46.160> um<00:48:46.800> because<00:48:47.200> of<00:48:47.280> an<00:48:47.520> afterlife<00:48:48.000> is<00:48:48.240> just<00:48:48.480> so<00:48:49.119> uh<00:48:49.440> uh<00:48:49.680> unlikely.

00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:54.079
I<00:48:50.559> I<00:48:50.880> don't<00:48:51.119> I<00:48:51.359> happen<00:48:51.680> not<00:48:51.839> to<00:48:52.000> agree<00:48:52.160> with<00:48:52.319> it,<00:48:52.480> but<00:48:52.640> that's<00:48:52.880> an<00:48:53.040> argument.

00:48:54.079 --> 00:49:01.599
William<00:48:54.559> James<00:48:55.119> made<00:48:55.359> a<00:48:55.520> similar<00:48:56.000> argument<00:48:56.720> himself<00:48:57.440> regarding<00:48:58.319> uh<00:48:58.559> a<00:48:58.800> case<00:48:59.040> of<00:48:59.280> mediumship<00:49:00.079> that<00:49:00.319> he<00:49:00.640> discussed.

00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:09.599
So<00:49:01.760> if<00:49:02.000> we<00:49:02.240> jump<00:49:02.480> into<00:49:02.800> mediumship,<00:49:03.920> yeah,<00:49:04.319> and<00:49:04.559> that's<00:49:04.800> the<00:49:04.960> next<00:49:05.599> the<00:49:05.839> two<00:49:06.000> final<00:49:06.559> Well,<00:49:06.960> let's<00:49:07.200> do<00:49:07.440> quickly<00:49:08.160> uh<00:49:08.720> a<00:49:08.800> very<00:49:08.960> short<00:49:09.119> one.

00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:12.160
Uh<00:49:10.480> xenoglossy.<00:49:11.280> Did<00:49:11.440> I<00:49:11.520> pronounce<00:49:11.760> that<00:49:11.920> right?

00:49:12.160 --> 00:49:14.800
Xenoglossy.<00:49:13.839> Xenoglossy.

00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:17.599
And<00:49:15.040> that<00:49:15.359> that<00:49:15.760> is<00:49:16.000> speaking<00:49:16.400> different<00:49:16.800> languages.

00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:24.800
Yes,<00:49:17.839> xenoglossy<00:49:18.640> is<00:49:18.800> a<00:49:19.040> case<00:49:19.200> where<00:49:19.520> a<00:49:19.760> person<00:49:20.079> will<00:49:20.480> speak<00:49:20.800> a<00:49:21.040> language<00:49:21.760> that<00:49:22.079> they<00:49:22.720> never<00:49:23.040> had<00:49:23.200> an<00:49:23.520> opportunity<00:49:24.079> to<00:49:24.319> learn.

00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:27.440
Sometimes<00:49:25.200> an<00:49:25.440> archaic<00:49:26.400> language.

00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:33.760
Uh<00:49:27.760> the<00:49:28.079> the<00:49:28.480> possession<00:49:29.119> case<00:49:29.359> that<00:49:29.599> I<00:49:29.920> described<00:49:30.480> earlier<00:49:31.119> was<00:49:31.520> also<00:49:31.839> a<00:49:32.079> case<00:49:32.319> of<00:49:32.480> xenoglossy.

00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:38.079
Yeah,<00:49:33.920> I<00:49:34.079> I'd<00:49:34.319> like<00:49:34.480> that.<00:49:34.720> I've<00:49:34.960> been<00:49:35.040> trying<00:49:35.200> to<00:49:35.359> learn<00:49:35.520> Chinese<00:49:35.920> for<00:49:36.079> about<00:49:36.319> 30<00:49:36.559> years<00:49:36.720> and<00:49:37.040> not<00:49:37.200> doing<00:49:37.440> very<00:49:37.680> well.

00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:43.040
So<00:49:39.040> I'd<00:49:39.359> like<00:49:39.520> to<00:49:39.680> have<00:49:39.839> that<00:49:40.319> implanted<00:49:40.880> in<00:49:41.040> me,<00:49:41.280> but<00:49:41.520> that's<00:49:41.680> that<00:49:42.000> hasn't<00:49:42.400> happened.

00:49:43.040 --> 00:49:52.160
Um<00:49:43.440> okay<00:49:43.680> so<00:49:43.920> now<00:49:44.240> the<00:49:44.559> last<00:49:44.720> two<00:49:44.960> categories<00:49:45.520> are<00:49:45.680> important<00:49:46.000> one<00:49:46.960> is<00:49:47.280> mental<00:49:47.839> mediumship<00:49:48.960> and<00:49:49.520> this<00:49:49.760> the<00:49:50.000> last<00:49:50.160> one<00:49:50.480> is<00:49:50.880> physical<00:49:51.520> mediumship.

00:49:52.160 --> 00:50:00.480
So<00:49:52.400> describe<00:49:52.800> those<00:49:53.119> two.<00:49:53.599> Well<00:49:53.920> mental<00:49:54.319> mediumship<00:49:55.200> very<00:49:55.599> simply<00:49:56.079> is<00:49:56.400> a<00:49:56.640> case<00:49:56.880> where<00:49:57.200> a<00:49:57.680> medium<00:49:58.240> goes<00:49:58.559> into<00:49:58.960> trance<00:49:59.920> and<00:50:00.240> is

00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:07.040
able<00:50:00.880> to<00:50:01.440> establish<00:50:02.720> some<00:50:03.040> sort<00:50:03.280> of<00:50:03.599> contact<00:50:04.720> with<00:50:05.440> a<00:50:05.680> deceased<00:50:06.240> individual.

00:50:07.040 --> 00:50:15.440
But<00:50:07.200> it<00:50:07.359> can<00:50:07.520> occur<00:50:07.760> in<00:50:08.240> as<00:50:08.559> a<00:50:08.800> form<00:50:09.119> of<00:50:09.440> almost<00:50:09.839> like<00:50:10.160> possession,<00:50:11.040> temporary<00:50:11.760> possession,<00:50:12.319> where<00:50:12.640> the<00:50:13.040> deceased<00:50:13.599> individual<00:50:14.400> speaks<00:50:14.880> through<00:50:15.200> the

00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:24.160
medium<00:50:16.240> or<00:50:16.720> might<00:50:16.960> be<00:50:17.119> a<00:50:17.359> case<00:50:17.599> where<00:50:17.920> the<00:50:18.079> medium<00:50:19.119> is<00:50:19.520> experiencing<00:50:20.960> what<00:50:21.359> you<00:50:21.599> could<00:50:21.760> think<00:50:21.920> of<00:50:22.079> as<00:50:22.480> telepathic<00:50:23.440> contact

00:50:24.160 --> 00:50:32.720
with<00:50:24.480> the<00:50:24.720> deceased<00:50:25.280> person<00:50:25.599> and<00:50:25.920> is<00:50:26.240> describing<00:50:27.280> to<00:50:27.680> the<00:50:28.000> people<00:50:28.880> uh<00:50:29.200> who<00:50:29.520> are<00:50:29.680> witnessing<00:50:30.160> the<00:50:30.400> mediumship<00:50:31.520> uh<00:50:31.760> what<00:50:32.000> the<00:50:32.160> deceased

00:50:32.720 --> 00:50:36.079
individual<00:50:33.440> is<00:50:34.000> saying<00:50:34.400> about<00:50:34.800> them.

00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:44.880
One<00:50:36.400> of<00:50:36.480> the<00:50:36.640> most<00:50:36.960> interesting<00:50:37.599> historical<00:50:38.480> cases<00:50:39.520> involves<00:50:40.319> that<00:50:40.559> of<00:50:40.800> a<00:50:41.440> researcher<00:50:42.000> named<00:50:42.319> Richard<00:50:42.720> Hodgson<00:50:43.440> who<00:50:43.760> was<00:50:44.240> researching

00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:53.599
mediumship.<00:50:46.000> He<00:50:46.240> was<00:50:46.400> an<00:50:46.640> assistant<00:50:47.440> to<00:50:47.839> working<00:50:48.160> with<00:50:48.559> William<00:50:49.040> James<00:50:49.920> at<00:50:50.160> the<00:50:50.400> time<00:50:51.119> exploring<00:50:51.680> the<00:50:51.920> mediumship<00:50:52.640> of<00:50:52.880> Leonora

00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:57.280
Piper<00:50:54.079> who<00:50:54.240> had<00:50:54.480> been<00:50:54.640> discovered<00:50:55.280> by<00:50:56.160> William<00:50:56.640> James.

00:50:57.280 --> 00:51:05.040
And<00:50:57.520> after<00:50:58.000> Hodgson<00:50:58.720> died<00:50:59.119> suddenly<00:50:59.680> at<00:50:59.920> the<00:51:00.079> age<00:51:00.319> of<00:51:00.559> 40,<00:51:01.520> he<00:51:01.760> began<00:51:02.640> appearing<00:51:03.280> through<00:51:04.480> Mrs.

00:51:05.040 --> 00:51:14.240
Piper<00:51:05.839> and<00:51:06.079> William<00:51:06.559> James<00:51:07.040> was<00:51:07.359> a<00:51:07.599> witness<00:51:08.319> to<00:51:08.880> many<00:51:09.200> of<00:51:09.440> those<00:51:11.040> seances<00:51:11.920> and<00:51:12.240> he<00:51:12.480> wrote<00:51:12.720> a<00:51:12.960> very<00:51:13.359> lengthy

00:51:14.240 --> 00:51:22.480
article<00:51:14.720> about<00:51:15.040> it<00:51:15.359> and<00:51:15.599> the<00:51:16.160> proceedings<00:51:16.800> of<00:51:17.040> the<00:51:17.280> Society<00:51:18.240> for<00:51:18.559> Psychical<00:51:19.200> Research<00:51:19.760> about<00:51:20.079> his<00:51:20.400> experiences<00:51:21.920> with<00:51:22.240> what

00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:25.839
he<00:51:23.200> would<00:51:23.440> call<00:51:23.599> the<00:51:23.839> Hodgson<00:51:24.720> control.

00:51:25.839 --> 00:51:32.000
In<00:51:26.079> other<00:51:26.319> words,<00:51:26.720> a<00:51:27.119> voice<00:51:28.240> purporting<00:51:28.880> to<00:51:29.119> be<00:51:29.280> Hodgson<00:51:30.319> speaking<00:51:30.880> through<00:51:31.520> Mrs.

00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:36.559
Piper.<00:51:32.559> and<00:51:32.800> he<00:51:32.960> said,<00:51:33.119> "Yeah,<00:51:34.079> it<00:51:34.240> was<00:51:34.480> totally<00:51:35.119> convincing<00:51:35.680> to<00:51:36.000> him.

00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:41.119
The<00:51:36.800> Hodgson<00:51:37.440> control<00:51:37.920> knew<00:51:38.240> things<00:51:39.040> about<00:51:39.440> Hodgson's<00:51:40.160> life<00:51:40.400> that<00:51:40.720> Mrs.

00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:44.880
Piper<00:51:41.760> would<00:51:42.079> never<00:51:42.400> have<00:51:42.640> known,<00:51:42.960> but<00:51:43.359> William<00:51:43.760> James<00:51:44.240> did."

00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:48.319
The<00:51:45.200> personality<00:51:46.079> seemed<00:51:46.559> authentic.

00:51:48.319 --> 00:51:56.640
However,<00:51:48.960> William<00:51:49.359> James<00:51:49.760> said,<00:51:50.319> "It's<00:51:50.800> either<00:51:51.200> Hodgson<00:51:52.000> or<00:51:52.880> it<00:51:53.200> may<00:51:53.359> be<00:51:54.079> some<00:51:54.400> sort<00:51:54.720> of<00:51:55.200> uh<00:51:55.520> entity<00:51:56.319> from

00:51:56.640 --> 00:52:01.920
what<00:51:56.800> he<00:51:57.040> called<00:51:57.280> the<00:51:57.520> great<00:51:57.839> cosmic<00:51:58.480> reservoir<00:52:00.559> speaking<00:52:01.040> through<00:52:01.440> Mrs.

00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:09.119
Piper<00:52:03.119> purporting<00:52:03.680> to<00:52:03.920> be<00:52:04.160> Hodgson<00:52:05.200> but<00:52:05.520> actually<00:52:06.000> just<00:52:06.400> simulating<00:52:07.359> what<00:52:07.680> Hodgson<00:52:08.240> might<00:52:08.480> have<00:52:08.720> said.

00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:17.280
So<00:52:09.599> yeah,<00:52:10.400> even<00:52:10.880> even<00:52:11.359> William<00:52:11.760> James<00:52:12.319> said,<00:52:12.640> you<00:52:12.800> know,<00:52:12.880> we<00:52:13.200> couldn't<00:52:13.520> come<00:52:13.680> up<00:52:13.920> with<00:52:14.079> a<00:52:14.319> a<00:52:14.800> final<00:52:15.280> answer<00:52:16.240> on<00:52:16.559> this.

00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:25.920
But<00:52:17.520> I<00:52:17.839> think<00:52:17.920> a<00:52:18.160> more<00:52:18.480> convincing<00:52:19.119> case<00:52:19.520> even<00:52:19.839> than<00:52:20.079> that<00:52:20.880> is<00:52:21.520> uh<00:52:21.760> what<00:52:22.000> I<00:52:22.240> describe<00:52:22.720> as<00:52:23.040> the<00:52:23.839> chess<00:52:24.240> game<00:52:24.559> from<00:52:24.880> the<00:52:25.040> dead.

00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:29.200
I<00:52:26.216> I<00:52:26.512> I<00:52:26.808> saw<00:52:27.104> that<00:52:27.400> the<00:52:27.696> Victor<00:52:27.992> Korchnoi<00:52:28.288> I<00:52:28.584> remember<00:52:28.880> well.

00:52:29.200 --> 00:52:33.280
I<00:52:29.359> follow<00:52:29.680> chess.<00:52:30.160> Uh,<00:52:30.559> and<00:52:30.880> so<00:52:31.440> yeah,<00:52:31.760> te<00:52:32.000> tell<00:52:32.240> me<00:52:32.400> tell<00:52:32.640> me<00:52:32.720> about<00:52:32.880> that.

00:52:33.280 --> 00:52:41.839
Well,<00:52:33.440> there<00:52:33.680> was<00:52:33.839> a<00:52:34.160> Swiss<00:52:34.720> researcher<00:52:35.520> named<00:52:36.160> uh<00:52:36.480> Eisenbud<00:52:38.079> who<00:52:38.480> came<00:52:38.800> up<00:52:38.960> with<00:52:39.200> the<00:52:39.520> idea<00:52:40.319> that<00:52:40.640> if<00:52:41.599> you

00:52:41.839 --> 00:52:50.800
wanted<00:52:42.160> to<00:52:42.400> prove<00:52:42.720> the<00:52:42.960> afterlife,<00:52:44.079> information<00:52:44.800> alone<00:52:45.680> isn't<00:52:46.160> enough<00:52:46.640> because<00:52:47.440> information<00:52:48.160> could<00:52:48.400> be<00:52:48.720> reproduced<00:52:49.280> through<00:52:49.760> telepathy<00:52:50.559> as

00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:53.599
Steve<00:52:51.360> Braude<00:52:51.920> had<00:52:52.480> pointed<00:52:53.040> out.

00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:55.839
But<00:52:53.760> what<00:52:54.000> if<00:52:54.240> it<00:52:54.480> wasn't<00:52:54.800> just<00:52:55.200> information?

00:52:55.839 --> 00:52:58.880
What<00:52:56.079> if<00:52:56.160> it<00:52:56.400> was<00:52:56.480> a<00:52:56.800> skill<00:52:57.920> that<00:52:58.319> came<00:52:58.559> through?

00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:06.319
A<00:52:59.119> skill<00:52:59.440> that<00:52:59.680> could<00:52:59.839> only<00:53:00.160> be<00:53:00.559> cultivated<00:53:01.359> after<00:53:01.839> years<00:53:02.319> of<00:53:02.640> study<00:53:03.280> and<00:53:03.599> chess<00:53:04.240> offered<00:53:04.800> some<00:53:05.520> opportunity.

00:53:06.319 --> 00:53:16.079
What<00:53:06.480> if<00:53:06.640> we<00:53:06.880> could<00:53:07.040> get<00:53:07.280> a<00:53:07.599> deceased<00:53:08.800> chess<00:53:09.200> master<00:53:10.079> from<00:53:10.480> the<00:53:10.720> afterlife<00:53:11.760> to<00:53:12.079> come<00:53:12.240> and<00:53:12.480> play<00:53:12.720> a<00:53:12.960> game<00:53:13.200> of<00:53:13.359> chess<00:53:13.760> with<00:53:13.920> a<00:53:14.160> living<00:53:14.559> grandmaster?

00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:23.680
And<00:53:16.319> if<00:53:16.559> the<00:53:16.880> game<00:53:17.119> were<00:53:17.440> played<00:53:17.760> at<00:53:18.000> the<00:53:18.240> level<00:53:18.480> of<00:53:18.640> a<00:53:18.880> grandmaster,<00:53:20.160> wouldn't<00:53:20.480> that<00:53:20.720> be<00:53:21.040> good<00:53:21.680> evidence<00:53:22.240> for<00:53:22.559> an<00:53:22.800> afterlife?

00:53:23.680 --> 00:53:32.800
That's<00:53:24.116> an<00:53:24.551> interesting<00:53:24.987> idea.<00:53:25.422> And<00:53:25.858> so<00:53:26.293> he<00:53:26.729> had<00:53:27.164> a<00:53:27.600> friend<00:53:28.036> named<00:53:28.471> uh<00:53:28.907> Robert<00:53:29.342> Rollins<00:53:29.778> who<00:53:30.213> was<00:53:30.649> an<00:53:31.084> automatic<00:53:31.520> writer.

00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:39.280
And<00:53:34.880> uh<00:53:35.200> Eisenbud<00:53:36.319> asked<00:53:36.720> Rollins<00:53:37.280> who<00:53:37.520> didn't<00:53:37.760> know<00:53:37.839> how<00:53:38.079> to<00:53:38.240> play<00:53:38.480> chess.

00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:43.599
You<00:53:39.440> had<00:53:39.599> to<00:53:39.760> teach<00:53:39.920> him<00:53:40.160> a<00:53:40.400> little<00:53:40.480> bit<00:53:40.800> just<00:53:40.960> the<00:53:41.280> basics.

00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:52.000
Could<00:53:44.029> you<00:53:44.458> ask<00:53:44.888> your<00:53:45.317> guides<00:53:45.747> to<00:53:46.176> search<00:53:46.606> through<00:53:47.035> the<00:53:47.465> afterlife<00:53:47.894> and<00:53:48.324> see<00:53:48.753> if<00:53:49.183> there<00:53:49.612> are<00:53:50.042> any<00:53:50.471> deceased<00:53:50.901> grandmasters<00:53:51.330> who<00:53:51.760> would

00:53:52.000 --> 00:54:00.240
be<00:53:52.367> willing<00:53:52.734> to<00:53:53.102> play<00:53:53.469> a<00:53:53.836> game<00:53:54.203> of<00:53:54.571> chess<00:53:54.938> [laughter]<00:53:55.305> and<00:53:55.672> they<00:53:56.040> enlisted<00:53:56.407> uh<00:53:56.774> Korchnoi<00:53:57.141> who<00:53:57.508> was<00:53:57.876> at<00:53:58.243> the<00:53:58.610> time<00:53:58.977> ranked<00:53:59.345> number<00:53:59.712> two<00:54:00.079> in

00:54:00.240 --> 00:54:03.839
the<00:54:00.400> world.<00:54:01.040> Yeah.<00:54:02.240> To<00:54:02.480> play<00:54:02.720> a<00:54:02.960> game<00:54:03.119> of<00:54:03.359> chess.

00:54:03.839 --> 00:54:13.760
And<00:54:04.599> they<00:54:05.359> found<00:54:06.119> actually<00:54:06.879> a<00:54:07.639> deceased<00:54:08.400> chess<00:54:09.160> master<00:54:09.920> named<00:54:10.680> Geza<00:54:11.440> Maroczy,<00:54:12.200> Hungarian,<00:54:12.960> who

00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:17.920
had<00:54:14.000> died<00:54:14.480> in<00:54:14.880> 1951,<00:54:16.640> as<00:54:16.880> I<00:54:17.119> recall.

00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:21.680
The<00:54:18.240> experiment<00:54:18.800> took<00:54:19.119> place<00:54:19.359> in<00:54:19.680> the<00:54:19.839> 1980s.

00:54:21.680 --> 00:54:25.520
And<00:54:22.720> uh<00:54:22.960> Maroczy<00:54:23.680> said,<00:54:24.160> "Yeah,<00:54:24.559> I'll<00:54:24.800> play<00:54:25.040> chess."

00:54:25.520 --> 00:54:34.400
And<00:54:25.760> along<00:54:26.079> the<00:54:26.319> way,<00:54:27.119> in<00:54:27.359> addition<00:54:27.680> to<00:54:28.559> playing<00:54:28.960> chess,<00:54:29.359> they<00:54:29.599> asked<00:54:29.839> him<00:54:30.079> a<00:54:30.400> whole<00:54:30.720> series<00:54:31.119> of<00:54:31.359> questions<00:54:32.160> about<00:54:32.559> his<00:54:32.880> personal<00:54:33.440> life,<00:54:34.079> which

00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:39.440
were<00:54:34.800> answered<00:54:35.920> at<00:54:36.160> approximately<00:54:37.040> 98%<00:54:38.319> accuracy.

00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:48.319
And<00:54:39.874> to<00:54:40.307> be<00:54:40.741> even<00:54:41.175> more<00:54:41.608> convincing,<00:54:42.042> some<00:54:42.476> of<00:54:42.909> the<00:54:43.343> answers<00:54:43.777> that<00:54:44.211> the<00:54:44.644> researchers<00:54:45.078> originally<00:54:45.512> thought<00:54:45.945> were<00:54:46.379> incorrect<00:54:46.813> upon<00:54:47.246> further<00:54:47.680> research

00:54:48.319 --> 00:54:56.720
turned<00:54:48.829> out<00:54:49.339> to<00:54:49.849> be<00:54:50.359> correct.<00:54:50.869> So<00:54:51.379> you<00:54:51.889> got<00:54:52.400> one<00:54:52.910> form<00:54:53.420> of<00:54:53.930> evidence<00:54:54.440> being<00:54:54.950> these<00:54:55.460> answers<00:54:55.970> which<00:54:56.480> were

00:54:56.720 --> 00:55:05.599
all<00:54:57.230> communicated<00:54:57.740> via<00:54:58.250> automatic<00:54:58.760> writing<00:54:59.270> and<00:54:59.780> in<00:55:00.290> two<00:55:00.800> different<00:55:01.310> languages<00:55:01.820> as<00:55:02.330> I<00:55:02.840> recall<00:55:03.350> because<00:55:03.860> Maroczy<00:55:04.370> sometimes<00:55:04.880> communicated

00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:10.559
in<00:55:05.920> German<00:55:06.880> and<00:55:07.280> sometimes<00:55:08.160> it<00:55:08.400> would<00:55:08.559> have<00:55:08.720> been<00:55:09.040> I<00:55:09.280> think<00:55:09.760> Hungarian.

00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:17.599
I'm<00:55:10.720> not<00:55:10.960> sure<00:55:11.920> um<00:55:12.880> how<00:55:13.599> Rollins<00:55:14.319> probably<00:55:14.640> knew<00:55:14.960> German<00:55:15.359> but<00:55:15.599> I<00:55:15.839> don't<00:55:15.920> know<00:55:16.079> about<00:55:16.800> Hungarian.

00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:20.559
That<00:55:18.095> detail<00:55:18.591> eludes<00:55:19.087> me<00:55:19.583> right<00:55:20.079> now.

00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:23.280
But<00:55:20.720> the<00:55:20.880> game<00:55:21.119> of<00:55:21.280> chess<00:55:21.760> did<00:55:22.079> take<00:55:22.400> place.

00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:31.599
There<00:55:23.751> were<00:55:24.221> weeks<00:55:24.692> in<00:55:25.162> between<00:55:25.633> moves<00:55:26.104> because<00:55:26.574> he<00:55:27.045> had<00:55:27.515> a<00:55:27.986> very<00:55:28.456> busy<00:55:28.927> schedule<00:55:29.398> and<00:55:29.868> so<00:55:30.339> the<00:55:30.809> game<00:55:31.280> took

00:55:31.599 --> 00:55:34.800
place<00:55:31.920> over<00:55:32.240> a<00:55:32.400> couple<00:55:32.720> years.<00:55:33.920> Oh.

00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:42.079
After<00:55:35.262> it<00:55:35.723> was<00:55:36.185> concluded<00:55:36.646> at<00:55:37.108> one<00:55:37.569> point<00:55:38.031> Korchnoi<00:55:38.492> thought<00:55:38.954> he<00:55:39.415> was<00:55:39.877> going<00:55:40.338> to<00:55:40.800> lose.

00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:50.960
Uh<00:55:42.720> and<00:55:43.680> Maroczy<00:55:45.119> started<00:55:45.520> out<00:55:45.920> playing<00:55:46.240> in<00:55:46.480> the<00:55:46.720> style<00:55:47.119> of<00:55:47.359> chess<00:55:47.920> that<00:55:48.240> was<00:55:48.480> popular<00:55:49.040> in<00:55:49.359> his<00:55:49.599> lifetime<00:55:50.640> in

00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:59.920
1951.<00:55:52.079> Chess<00:55:52.400> had<00:55:52.640> evolved<00:55:53.839> uh<00:55:54.079> over<00:55:54.319> the<00:55:54.559> decades<00:55:55.520> and<00:55:56.559> so<00:55:56.799> he<00:55:56.960> had<00:55:57.119> a<00:55:57.280> weaker<00:55:57.839> opening<00:55:58.240> and<00:55:58.480> a<00:55:58.720> stronger<00:55:59.200> middlegame

00:55:59.920 --> 00:56:02.480
and<00:56:00.400> Korchnoi<00:56:01.119> thought<00:56:01.280> he<00:56:01.599> might<00:56:01.920> lose.

00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:10.960
Korchnoi<00:56:03.280> did<00:56:03.520> win<00:56:04.160> the<00:56:04.480> match<00:56:05.040> eventually<00:56:06.400> and<00:56:07.040> uh<00:56:07.440> Russell<00:56:07.920> Targ,<00:56:08.640> a<00:56:08.960> parapsychologist,<00:56:10.720> good

00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:17.599
friend<00:56:11.200> of<00:56:11.359> mine,<00:56:12.160> happened<00:56:12.400> to<00:56:12.559> be<00:56:12.720> the<00:56:12.960> brother-in-law<00:56:13.839> of<00:56:14.160> the<00:56:14.400> great<00:56:15.040> American<00:56:15.599> chess<00:56:16.000> master<00:56:16.400> Bobby<00:56:16.799> Fischer.

00:56:17.599 --> 00:56:26.559
So<00:56:17.839> he<00:56:18.559> showed<00:56:18.960> the<00:56:19.200> game<00:56:19.440> move<00:56:19.839> by<00:56:20.079> move<00:56:20.400> to<00:56:20.640> Bobby<00:56:21.040> Fischer<00:56:21.920> who<00:56:22.559> looked<00:56:22.799> at<00:56:23.040> it<00:56:23.280> and<00:56:23.599> said<00:56:24.160> yes<00:56:24.559> this<00:56:24.880> game<00:56:25.200> was<00:56:25.520> played<00:56:26.000> at

00:56:26.559 --> 00:56:35.359
a<00:56:27.159> grandmaster<00:56:27.759> level<00:56:28.359> and<00:56:28.959> uh<00:56:29.559> further<00:56:30.159> analysis<00:56:30.760> was<00:56:31.360> done<00:56:31.960> by<00:56:32.560> Vernon<00:56:33.160> Neppe,<00:56:33.760> a<00:56:34.360> former<00:56:34.960> chess

00:56:35.359 --> 00:56:38.480
player,<00:56:36.240> not<00:56:36.480> at<00:56:36.640> that<00:56:36.880> level<00:56:37.200> but<00:56:37.520> still<00:56:37.839> very<00:56:38.160> good.

00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:47.200
I<00:56:38.720> think<00:56:38.880> he<00:56:39.119> was<00:56:39.520> the<00:56:39.839> chess<00:56:40.160> champion<00:56:40.720> of<00:56:40.960> South<00:56:41.280> Africa<00:56:42.079> at<00:56:42.400> one<00:56:42.640> time<00:56:43.680> and<00:56:44.319> he<00:56:44.559> looked<00:56:44.799> at<00:56:44.960> it<00:56:45.200> and<00:56:45.440> he<00:56:45.599> noted<00:56:46.000> that<00:56:46.799> the

00:56:47.200 --> 00:56:55.440
style<00:56:47.839> of<00:56:48.480> play<00:56:49.599> that<00:56:50.400> Maroczy<00:56:51.040> used<00:56:51.440> was<00:56:51.680> very<00:56:52.079> consistent<00:56:52.640> with<00:56:53.119> his<00:56:53.520> style<00:56:53.920> of<00:56:54.319> playing<00:56:54.960> when<00:56:55.200> he

00:56:55.440 --> 00:57:03.760
was<00:56:55.599> alive<00:56:56.240> that<00:56:57.280> not<00:56:57.599> only<00:56:58.319> uh<00:56:59.280> the<00:56:59.680> information<00:57:00.160> that<00:57:00.400> he<00:57:00.640> gave<00:57:00.960> but<00:57:01.200> his<00:57:01.520> personality<00:57:02.640> came<00:57:02.960> through<00:57:03.200> in<00:57:03.520> the

00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:07.680
moves<00:57:04.160> that<00:57:04.400> he<00:57:04.640> made.<00:57:05.034> [laughter]<00:57:06.160> So,<00:57:07.119> okay.

00:57:07.680 --> 00:57:10.480
All<00:57:07.839> right,<00:57:08.559> that's<00:57:08.799> an<00:57:09.040> interesting<00:57:09.839> data<00:57:10.160> point.

00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:14.160
Uh,<00:57:10.720> final<00:57:11.119> category<00:57:11.520> is<00:57:11.760> physical<00:57:12.799> uh<00:57:12.960> mediumship.

00:57:14.160 --> 00:57:23.520
Now,<00:57:14.480> this<00:57:14.640> is<00:57:14.799> the<00:57:15.040> most<00:57:15.359> controversial<00:57:16.000> of<00:57:16.319> all<00:57:16.960> because<00:57:17.359> in<00:57:17.599> general<00:57:18.000> of<00:57:18.319> all<00:57:18.480> the<00:57:18.720> paranormal<00:57:19.920> uh<00:57:20.079> phenomena,<00:57:20.799> physical<00:57:21.359> effects,<00:57:22.160> psychokinesis

00:57:23.520 --> 00:57:27.040
is<00:57:23.839> the<00:57:24.079> most<00:57:24.799> hard<00:57:25.119> for<00:57:25.359> people<00:57:25.680> to<00:57:25.920> swallow.

00:57:27.040 --> 00:57:35.359
But<00:57:27.280> there<00:57:27.440> are<00:57:27.680> cases<00:57:28.240> in<00:57:28.559> which<00:57:28.799> the<00:57:29.599> great<00:57:30.400> physicist<00:57:31.040> Sir<00:57:31.359> William<00:57:31.760> Crookes<00:57:33.119> who<00:57:33.920> was<00:57:34.160> a<00:57:34.720> president<00:57:35.119> of

00:57:35.359 --> 00:57:43.839
the<00:57:35.599> Royal<00:57:36.079> Society<00:57:37.200> worked<00:57:37.440> with<00:57:37.760> mediums<00:57:38.640> back<00:57:38.880> in<00:57:39.119> the<00:57:39.359> 19th<00:57:39.839> century<00:57:40.480> and<00:57:41.280> he<00:57:41.680> recorded<00:57:42.400> and<00:57:42.880> photographed<00:57:43.599> what

00:57:43.839 --> 00:57:52.720
appear<00:57:44.160> to<00:57:44.319> be<00:57:44.960> full<00:57:45.280> body<00:57:45.680> materializations<00:57:46.880> of<00:57:47.200> spirit<00:57:47.680> entities<00:57:48.799> that<00:57:49.119> so<00:57:49.359> that<00:57:49.520> would<00:57:49.760> be<00:57:49.839> an<00:57:50.079> example<00:57:50.559> of<00:57:51.040> physical<00:57:51.520> mediumship.

00:57:52.720 --> 00:58:02.400
Apports<00:57:53.839> uh<00:57:54.079> items<00:57:54.960> just<00:57:55.280> sort<00:57:55.520> of<00:57:55.680> falling<00:57:56.160> from<00:57:56.400> the<00:57:56.640> ceiling<00:57:57.359> are<00:57:57.920> another<00:57:58.400> example<00:57:59.280> that<00:57:59.599> are<00:57:59.839> reported<00:58:00.319> in<00:58:01.040> seances.

00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:11.680
But<00:58:02.898> I<00:58:03.395> think<00:58:03.893> in<00:58:04.391> terms<00:58:04.889> of<00:58:05.386> evidence<00:58:05.884> of<00:58:06.382> the<00:58:06.880> afterlife<00:58:07.377> uh<00:58:07.875> if<00:58:08.373> a<00:58:08.870> deceased<00:58:09.368> person<00:58:09.866> actually<00:58:10.364> can<00:58:10.861> materialize<00:58:11.359> and

00:58:11.680 --> 00:58:16.079
be<00:58:12.000> photographed<00:58:13.119> or<00:58:13.440> witnessed

00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:21.015
I<00:58:16.319> would<00:58:16.480> I<00:58:16.799> would<00:58:17.040> regard<00:58:17.440> that<00:58:17.839> as<00:58:18.240> as<00:58:18.640> pretty<00:58:18.960> impressive.

00:58:21.015 --> 00:58:29.280
[clears<00:58:21.461> throat]<00:58:21.907> And<00:58:22.353> so<00:58:22.798> there<00:58:23.244> are<00:58:23.690> in<00:58:24.136> in<00:58:24.582> the<00:58:25.028> uh<00:58:25.473> records,<00:58:25.919> including<00:58:26.365> some<00:58:26.811> contemporary<00:58:27.257> examples,<00:58:27.703> there<00:58:28.148> are<00:58:28.594> dozens<00:58:29.040> of

00:58:29.280 --> 00:58:37.599
of<00:58:29.760> cases<00:58:30.160> of<00:58:30.400> that<00:58:30.640> sort.<00:58:31.359> And<00:58:31.920> uh<00:58:32.240> as<00:58:32.480> hard<00:58:32.720> as<00:58:32.960> they<00:58:33.200> are<00:58:33.359> to<00:58:33.680> swallow,<00:58:34.480> I<00:58:35.359> think<00:58:35.760> they'd<00:58:36.079> be<00:58:36.240> equally<00:58:37.280> hard

00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:39.760
to<00:58:37.920> ignore.<00:58:39.440> Okay.

00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:44.400
Well,<00:58:40.000> that's<00:58:40.400> those<00:58:40.640> are<00:58:40.799> the<00:58:41.200> arrows<00:58:41.680> in<00:58:42.000> your<00:58:42.799> unbreakable<00:58:43.920> quiver.

00:58:44.400 --> 00:58:46.160
Each<00:58:44.640> one<00:58:44.880> has<00:58:45.040> its<00:58:45.359> elements<00:58:45.760> to<00:58:46.000> it.

00:58:46.160 --> 00:58:54.720
And<00:58:46.400> as<00:58:46.640> I<00:58:46.799> said,<00:58:46.960> I<00:58:47.200> appreciate<00:58:47.520> the<00:58:47.760> organization<00:58:48.400> and<00:58:48.640> the<00:58:49.119> way<00:58:49.359> of<00:58:49.520> thinking<00:58:49.760> and<00:58:50.000> I<00:58:50.160> think<00:58:50.400> I<00:58:50.559> think<00:58:50.720> we<00:58:50.880> can<00:58:51.040> safely<00:58:51.440> say<00:58:51.680> that<00:58:51.920> there's<00:58:52.640> no<00:58:53.040> kinds<00:58:53.440> of<00:58:53.599> evidence

00:58:54.720 --> 00:58:58.400
uh<00:58:54.880> for<00:58:55.280> the<00:58:55.520> afterlife<00:58:56.160> of<00:58:56.400> this<00:58:56.640> kind<00:58:56.880> that<00:58:57.119> you<00:58:57.359> have<00:58:57.520> not<00:58:57.760> included.

00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:02.720
So<00:58:58.880> anyone<00:58:59.200> who<00:58:59.440> wants<00:58:59.599> to<00:58:59.839> see<00:58:59.920> a<00:59:00.160> nice<00:59:00.400> list,<00:59:00.720> this<00:59:00.880> is<00:59:01.119> an<00:59:01.520> ideal<00:59:01.920> place<00:59:02.079> to<00:59:02.400> wait.

00:59:02.720 --> 00:59:09.680
Just<00:59:02.960> a<00:59:03.200> few<00:59:03.359> words<00:59:03.680> finally<00:59:04.000> on<00:59:04.240> your<00:59:04.880> next<00:59:05.119> part<00:59:05.440> which<00:59:05.680> is<00:59:05.839> a<00:59:06.000> short<00:59:06.240> part<00:59:06.559> which<00:59:06.799> which<00:59:06.960> you<00:59:07.119> call<00:59:07.280> the<00:59:07.440> framework<00:59:08.000> consciousness<00:59:08.480> beyond<00:59:08.799> the<00:59:08.960> brain.

00:59:09.680 --> 00:59:13.359
What<00:59:09.920> kind<00:59:10.079> of<00:59:10.240> theories<00:59:10.880> would<00:59:11.440> uh<00:59:11.839> would<00:59:12.160> permit<00:59:12.559> that?

00:59:13.359 --> 00:59:15.920
Um<00:59:13.920> just<00:59:14.160> a<00:59:14.319> few<00:59:14.480> words<00:59:14.799> on<00:59:15.040> that.

00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:21.359
Okay.<00:59:16.319> Well,<00:59:16.799> metaphysically<00:59:17.760> speaking,<00:59:18.400> there<00:59:18.559> are<00:59:19.040> three<00:59:19.520> primary<00:59:20.160> theories.

00:59:21.359 --> 00:59:30.160
Monism,<00:59:22.960> uh,<00:59:23.200> dualism,<00:59:24.960> and<00:59:25.280> monism<00:59:25.920> can<00:59:26.160> be<00:59:26.319> divided<00:59:26.799> into<00:59:27.200> materialism<00:59:28.079> versus<00:59:28.559> idealism.

00:59:30.160 --> 00:59:35.599
So,<00:59:30.559> I<00:59:30.880> think<00:59:31.040> all<00:59:31.440> three<00:59:31.760> theories<00:59:32.319> are<00:59:32.640> capable<00:59:33.119> of<00:59:33.359> accommodating<00:59:34.480> this<00:59:34.799> data.

00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:44.400
But<00:59:35.760> I<00:59:36.079> lean<00:59:36.559> towards<00:59:37.200> idealism<00:59:38.319> which<00:59:38.640> was<00:59:39.280> a<00:59:39.760> philosophy<00:59:41.200> consistent<00:59:41.760> with<00:59:42.079> the<00:59:42.319> ancient<00:59:42.799> Vedanta<00:59:43.839> traditions

00:59:44.400 --> 00:59:52.880
of<00:59:44.720> India.<00:59:45.599> It's<00:59:46.000> consistent<00:59:46.799> with<00:59:47.040> the<00:59:47.280> great<00:59:48.480> German<00:59:48.960> idealists<00:59:50.400> even<00:59:50.720> going<00:59:51.040> back<00:59:51.359> to<00:59:51.599> Immanuel<00:59:52.400> Kant

00:59:52.880 --> 01:00:02.000
and<00:59:53.200> Schopenhauer<00:59:54.160> and<00:59:55.280> uh<00:59:55.839> many<00:59:56.160> other<00:59:56.880> great<00:59:57.200> German<00:59:57.680> philosophers<00:59:58.559> and<00:59:58.960> the<00:59:59.280> British<00:59:59.599> idealists<01:00:00.319> like<01:00:00.559> Bishop<01:00:00.960> Berkeley

01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:09.520
as<01:00:02.240> as<01:00:02.640> well<01:00:03.440> who<01:00:03.680> would<01:00:03.920> basically<01:00:04.480> say<01:00:05.040> we<01:00:05.280> don't<01:00:05.520> need<01:00:05.839> to<01:00:06.079> posit<01:00:06.799> more<01:00:07.119> than<01:00:07.359> one<01:00:07.760> metaphysical<01:00:08.640> substance.

01:00:09.520 --> 01:00:13.440
Sure.<01:00:09.760> The<01:00:09.920> British<01:00:10.240> were<01:00:10.480> you<01:00:10.640> know<01:00:10.720> had<01:00:10.880> then<01:00:11.119> had<01:00:11.839> F.H.<01:00:12.319> Bradley<01:00:12.799> and<01:00:13.119> McTaggart.

01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:21.599
I<01:00:13.599> mean<01:00:13.760> the<01:00:13.920> British<01:00:14.880> uh<01:00:15.119> idealists<01:00:15.680> were<01:00:15.920> were<01:00:16.720> were<01:00:16.960> an<01:00:17.119> important<01:00:17.440> group<01:00:18.799> very<01:00:19.119> much<01:00:19.359> more<01:00:19.680> related<01:00:20.079> than<01:00:20.240> the<01:00:20.480> German<01:00:20.799> idealists<01:00:21.440> and

01:00:21.599 --> 01:00:30.000
their<01:00:21.920> their<01:00:22.160> idealism<01:00:22.799> had<01:00:23.040> a<01:00:23.359> kind<01:00:23.520> of<01:00:23.599> a<01:00:23.839> broader<01:00:24.240> historical<01:00:24.960> nature<01:00:25.440> from<01:00:26.319> Kant<01:00:27.040> and<01:00:27.280> Hegel<01:00:27.760> and<01:00:28.240> and<01:00:28.640> Schelling<01:00:29.200> and<01:00:29.599> Fichte.

01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:38.079
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01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:46.559
which<01:00:38.240> is<01:00:38.400> the<01:00:38.799> original.<01:00:40.079> So<01:00:40.799> I<01:00:41.119> think<01:00:41.440> you<01:00:41.599> know<01:00:41.839> that<01:00:42.079> it<01:00:42.319> has<01:00:42.480> a<01:00:42.799> very<01:00:43.359> respectful<01:00:44.319> respected<01:00:45.440> tradition<01:00:46.000> and<01:00:46.240> yeah

01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:52.559
certainly<01:00:46.880> idealism<01:00:47.520> is<01:00:47.839> highly<01:00:48.160> respected<01:00:48.559> and<01:00:48.799> I<01:00:49.040> give<01:00:49.200> that<01:00:49.440> great<01:00:49.920> credence<01:00:50.319> in<01:00:50.640> the<01:00:50.880> landscape<01:00:51.280> of<01:00:51.440> consciousness<01:00:51.920> I've<01:00:52.160> done.

01:00:52.559 --> 01:00:57.680
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01:00:57.680 --> 01:01:05.920
Yeah.<01:00:58.079> Um<01:00:58.559> and<01:00:58.960> I<01:00:59.119> I<01:00:59.440> was<01:00:59.760> curious<01:01:00.240> I<01:01:00.480> when<01:01:00.640> I<01:01:00.799> looked<01:01:01.040> at<01:01:01.200> that<01:01:01.440> section<01:01:02.720> uh<01:01:02.880> when<01:01:03.119> I<01:01:03.839> my<01:01:04.240> last<01:01:04.640> conversation<01:01:05.119> with<01:01:05.359> him<01:01:05.599> which<01:01:05.760> was

01:01:05.920 --> 01:01:11.200
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01:01:11.200 --> 01:01:20.000
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01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:28.480
idealism<01:01:20.720> was<01:01:20.960> the<01:01:21.440> reality<01:01:22.240> but<01:01:22.480> that<01:01:22.720> the<01:01:22.880> individual<01:01:24.240> uh<01:01:24.720> idealism<01:01:25.359> would<01:01:25.680> sort<01:01:25.839> of<01:01:26.000> disperse<01:01:26.960> and<01:01:27.280> there<01:01:27.520> wouldn't<01:01:27.920> be<01:01:28.079> a

01:01:28.480 --> 01:01:36.640
consciousness<01:01:29.280> after<01:01:29.680> that.<01:01:30.559> uh<01:01:30.720> that<01:01:30.960> that<01:01:30.961> that<01:01:31.599> each<01:01:31.839> individual<01:01:32.880> consciousness<01:01:33.440> was<01:01:33.760> a<01:01:34.400> kind<01:01:34.640> of<01:01:34.720> a<01:01:35.040> you<01:01:35.200> know<01:01:35.280> it's<01:01:35.599> it's<01:01:35.839> what's<01:01:36.480> called

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the<01:01:37.002> decomposition<01:01:37.363> problem<01:01:37.725> in<01:01:38.087> idealism<01:01:38.449> that<01:01:38.810> you<01:01:39.172> know<01:01:39.534> the<01:01:39.896> comp<01:01:40.257> in<01:01:40.619> panpsychism<01:01:40.981> there's<01:01:41.343> a<01:01:41.704> little<01:01:42.066> bit<01:01:42.428> of<01:01:42.790> everything's<01:01:43.151> a<01:01:43.513> little<01:01:43.875> bit<01:01:44.237> of<01:01:44.598> uh<01:01:44.960> of

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protoconsciousness<01:01:46.480> how<01:01:46.640> do<01:01:46.720> you<01:01:46.960> how<01:01:47.200> do<01:01:47.280> you<01:01:47.440> get<01:01:47.520> a<01:01:47.680> combination<01:01:48.160> to<01:01:48.319> be<01:01:48.480> big<01:01:48.799> consciousness<01:01:49.200> and<01:01:49.359> idealism<01:01:50.000> everything<01:01:50.160> is<01:01:50.319> consciousness<01:01:50.799> so<01:01:50.960> how<01:01:51.119> do<01:01:51.200> you<01:01:51.440> how

01:01:51.680 --> 01:01:59.599
do<01:01:51.760> you<01:01:51.920> bubble<01:01:52.319> off<01:01:52.559> individual<01:01:53.200> consciousness<01:01:53.839> why<01:01:54.000> is<01:01:54.160> mine<01:01:54.480> different<01:01:54.720> than<01:01:54.880> yours<01:01:55.200> so<01:01:55.440> that's<01:01:55.599> their<01:01:55.839> problem<01:01:56.559> but<01:01:56.799> Bernardo<01:01:57.760> thought<01:01:58.079> that<01:01:58.720> you<01:01:58.880> know<01:01:58.960> once<01:01:59.280> that

01:01:59.599 --> 01:02:08.079
happened<01:02:00.079> when<01:02:00.319> it<01:02:00.480> went<01:02:00.720> back<01:02:01.359> it<01:02:01.599> would<01:02:01.760> just<01:02:02.079> kind<01:02:02.319> of<01:02:02.480> disperse<01:02:02.960> so<01:02:03.119> you'd<01:02:03.440> be<01:02:03.599> part<01:02:03.839> of<01:02:04.000> this<01:02:04.319> big<01:02:04.799> thing<01:02:05.040> but<01:02:05.280> you<01:02:05.440> would<01:02:05.599> not<01:02:05.760> have<01:02:06.000> that<01:02:06.480> individualism.

01:02:08.079 --> 01:02:10.559
Well<01:02:08.319> I<01:02:08.640> that<01:02:08.960> is<01:02:09.119> Bernardo's<01:02:10.000> position.

01:02:10.559 --> 01:02:15.839
I've<01:02:10.880> had<01:02:11.040> the<01:02:11.280> pleasure<01:02:11.760> of<01:02:12.480> interviewing<01:02:13.040> him<01:02:13.280> about<01:02:13.520> a<01:02:13.760> dozen<01:02:14.160> times.

01:02:15.839 --> 01:02:24.559
I'm<01:02:16.160> very<01:02:16.480> fond<01:02:16.720> of<01:02:16.960> Bernardo.<01:02:17.680> He's<01:02:18.079> probably<01:02:18.640> the<01:02:19.119> the<01:02:19.599> major<01:02:20.400> contemporary<01:02:21.839> exponent<01:02:22.480> of<01:02:22.720> idealism<01:02:23.920> today.

01:02:24.559 --> 01:02:26.880
But<01:02:24.960> we<01:02:25.200> do<01:02:25.440> disagree<01:02:26.000> about<01:02:26.319> that.

01:02:26.880 --> 01:02:35.280
And<01:02:27.680> uh<01:02:28.240> actually<01:02:29.839> I<01:02:30.240> draw<01:02:30.640> upon<01:02:31.280> a<01:02:31.760> prominent<01:02:32.480> skeptic<01:02:33.200> Martin<01:02:33.760> Gardner<01:02:34.720> of<01:02:34.960> all

01:02:35.280 --> 01:02:44.079
people<01:02:36.799> who<01:02:37.359> wrote<01:02:37.680> a<01:02:38.160> fascinating<01:02:39.040> essay<01:02:39.359> on<01:02:39.680> why<01:02:40.000> he<01:02:40.240> believes<01:02:40.960> in<01:02:41.280> the<01:02:41.520> possibility<01:02:42.160> of<01:02:42.400> an<01:02:42.720> afterlife<01:02:43.839> and

01:02:44.079 --> 01:02:50.480
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01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:56.000
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01:02:56.000 --> 01:03:02.668
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01:03:02.668 --> 01:03:09.599
[laughter]<01:03:03.280> And<01:03:04.319> it<01:03:04.640> seems<01:03:04.880> to<01:03:05.119> me<01:03:05.280> we<01:03:05.599> have<01:03:06.160> barely<01:03:06.720> begun<01:03:07.119> to<01:03:07.359> explore<01:03:07.839> those<01:03:08.240> potentialities.

01:03:09.599 --> 01:03:18.000
But<01:03:09.760> in<01:03:10.000> the<01:03:10.160> folk<01:03:10.559> tradition,<01:03:11.440> there's<01:03:11.760> a<01:03:12.000> lot<01:03:12.319> of<01:03:13.040> discussion<01:03:13.520> of<01:03:13.760> what's<01:03:14.160> called<01:03:14.319> the<01:03:14.640> astral<01:03:15.280> body<01:03:16.000> or<01:03:16.240> the<01:03:16.400> etheric<01:03:17.200> body.

01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:26.640
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01:03:26.640 --> 01:03:36.160
some<01:03:26.880> of<01:03:27.039> those<01:03:27.440> ideas<01:03:28.079> that<01:03:28.799> after<01:03:29.200> death<01:03:30.079> there's<01:03:30.480> still<01:03:30.960> some<01:03:31.520> kind<01:03:31.839> of<01:03:32.000> a<01:03:32.240> body<01:03:32.640> that<01:03:32.960> exists<01:03:33.839> not<01:03:34.400> in<01:03:35.200> three-dimensional

01:03:36.160 --> 01:03:40.400
space<01:03:36.480> that<01:03:36.799> we<01:03:37.119> experience<01:03:38.079> but<01:03:38.319> in<01:03:38.559> other<01:03:38.960> dimensions.

01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:48.799
I<01:03:40.640> I<01:03:41.039> don't<01:03:41.200> think<01:03:41.359> we<01:03:41.599> can<01:03:41.839> rule<01:03:42.160> that<01:03:42.400> out<01:03:42.960> on<01:03:43.200> the<01:03:43.359> one<01:03:43.599> hand<01:03:43.760> and<01:03:44.079> on<01:03:44.240> the<01:03:44.400> other<01:03:44.640> hand<01:03:44.880> as<01:03:45.760> I<01:03:46.079> described<01:03:46.960> earlier<01:03:47.520> I<01:03:47.680> think<01:03:47.839> the<01:03:48.079> whole<01:03:48.240> thing<01:03:48.400> is

01:03:48.799 --> 01:03:57.760
a<01:03:49.039> mystery<01:03:49.680> probably<01:03:51.039> incapable<01:03:51.839> of<01:03:52.079> human<01:03:52.559> understanding<01:03:53.440> that<01:03:53.920> if<01:03:54.160> we<01:03:54.319> were<01:03:54.559> to<01:03:54.720> describe<01:03:55.200> what<01:03:55.440> the<01:03:55.760> afterlife<01:03:56.480> is<01:03:57.119> actually

01:03:57.760 --> 01:04:02.480
like<01:03:58.640> it<01:03:59.039> it<01:03:59.280> would<01:03:59.440> be<01:03:59.599> beyond<01:04:00.079> all<01:04:00.480> description.

```