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# Is Death A Lie? | NDE Researcher Dr. Donna Thomas
- URL: https://famouspsychicmediums.com/episodes/is-death-a-lie-nde-researcher-dr-donna-thomas/
- Published: 2024-08-10T21:36:35.000Z
- Updated: 2026-08-21T18:57:15.000Z
- Description: What can children's near-death and extrasensory experiences teach us about the true nature of consciousness? Dr. Donna Thomas shares groundbreaking research that challenges the materialist worldview and offers a compassionate new lens on reality.
- Author: Angie Li
- Tags: News, Science

In this episode, Natalia Vorontsova sits down with Dr. Donna Thomas, a researcher of children's transpersonal and extrasensory experiences, to explore the nature of reality, consciousness, and post-materialist science. Dr. Thomas shares her personal journey, including two profound childhood near-death experiences that shaped her career and research focus.

Dr. Thomas discusses her unique methodology of researching with children rather than on them, positioning them as active partners and experts in their own experiences. She highlights common phenomena reported by children, such as out-of-body experiences, premonitions, telepathy, and encounters with loving darkness or spirals during near-death states.

The conversation also delves into the limitations of the current materialistic medical model, which often pathologizes these experiences as psychotic-like episodes. Dr. Thomas advocates for a multidisciplinary, post-materialist approach to science that integrates analytical idealism, allowing us to better understand consciousness and support children's well-being.

### Key takeaways

- Researching with children as active partners, rather than researching on them as passive subjects, unlocks deeper insights into their lived experiences.
- Children's near-death experiences often feature a loving darkness and spirals rather than the highly detailed narratives typically reported by adults.
- The current biomedical model tends to pathologize extrasensory experiences in children, labeling them as psychotic-like experiences instead of exploring them openly.
- Geometrical drawings and mandalas created by children globally suggest a primordial, inner knowledge that transcends cultural and geographical boundaries.
- Analytical idealism offers a robust philosophical framework that explains consciousness as a fundamental field of subjectivity rather than a product of the brain.
- Providing a safe, non-judgmental space for children to share and integrate their unexplained experiences significantly improves their psychological well-being.

### Highlights

- 0:02:14 — Dr. Thomas's personal childhood near-death experiences
- 0:10:55 — The importance of researching with children as partners
- 0:15:37 — Researching near-death experiences in pediatric intensive care
- 0:32:38 — Common unexplained experiences reported by children
- 0:44:17 — How materialistic science explains extrasensory experiences
- 0:49:05 — Analytical idealism and the metaphysics of consciousness
- 1:06:40 — The color cross project with Professor Sarah Durston
- 1:23:21 — Integrating extrasensory experiences and advice for parents

```chapters
00:00:00 Interview Intro
00:01:45 Intro Dr. Donna Thomas
00:02:14 Personal journey: from NDE and transpersonal experiences to science
00:10:55 Children as partners and not just subjects in research
00:13:14 Donna's research and amazing stories from children
00:21:02 Problems, questions and methods in ESP research with children
00:32:38 Most common unexplained experiences in children
00:36:11 The biggest AHA moments
00:44:17 How materialistic science explains ESP in children
00:49:05 What metaphysics Donna's research points to
00:52:32 How philosophy supports Donna's research
00:59:56 What Donna's research tells us about consciousness
01:04:18 The mind-body problem
01:06:40 Color cross project with prof. Sarah Durston
01:10:35 Multidisciplinary research: Pros and cons
01:14:10 Challenges in social and natural sciences
01:18:57 Post-materialist science and the world
01:21:49 Donna's book: for whom is it useful?
01:23:21 Integrating ESP experiences into our lives. Advice.
```

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the,<00:04:29.759> the<00:04:29.840> driver<00:04:30.160> was<00:04:30.280> going<00:04:30.520> much<00:04:30.720> too<00:04:31.039> fast,<00:04:31.639> and<00:04:31.759> it<00:04:31.880> began<00:04:32.080> to<00:04:32.240> flip<00:04:32.600> over<00:04:33.440> like<00:04:33.919> this,<00:04:34.919> um,<00:04:35.320> and<00:04:35.520> ultimately<00:04:36.039> it<00:04:36.199> crashed<00:04:36.560> into<00:04:36.840> a<00:04:37.000> wall,<00:04:37.479> and

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it<00:04:37.759> was<00:04:37.919> upside<00:04:38.360> down,<00:04:38.600> and<00:04:38.720> it<00:04:38.800> was<00:04:38.919> on<00:04:39.199> fire,<00:04:40.000> and<00:04:40.120> we<00:04:40.240> were<00:04:40.400> all<00:04:40.600> trapped<00:04:41.039> inside.<00:04:41.520> So,<00:04:41.639> it<00:04:41.720> was<00:04:41.960> quite<00:04:42.520> frightening.<00:04:43.520> And<00:04:43.800> again,<00:04:44.120> that<00:04:44.199> was<00:04:44.400> the<00:04:44.600> appearance<00:04:45.080> from<00:04:45.280> the<00:04:45.840> outside.

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Um,<00:04:47.440> inside<00:04:48.039> for<00:04:48.280> me,<00:04:49.199> um,<00:04:49.479> as<00:04:49.639> the<00:04:49.800> car<00:04:50.240> started<00:04:50.720> to<00:04:51.039> turn,<00:04:52.039> I<00:04:52.280> had<00:04:52.600> this<00:04:53.199> huge<00:04:53.759> intense<00:04:54.320> fear,<00:04:55.240> and

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this<00:04:55.759> thought<00:04:56.400> that,<00:04:56.560> well,<00:04:56.720> the<00:04:56.880> thought<00:04:57.160> was,<00:04:57.520> um,<00:04:57.800> I'm<00:04:57.919> going<00:04:58.160> to<00:04:58.400> die,<00:04:58.759> this<00:04:58.919> is<00:04:59.080> it.<00:05:00.199> And<00:05:00.840> all<00:05:01.000> of<00:05:01.120> a<00:05:01.280> sudden,<00:05:01.720> that<00:05:01.919> fear<00:05:02.639> melted<00:05:03.240> away,<00:05:04.240> and

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I<00:05:04.600> was<00:05:04.759> no<00:05:04.960> longer<00:05:05.240> in<00:05:05.400> the<00:05:05.639> car.<00:05:06.639> Um,<00:05:07.080> I'm<00:05:07.240> not<00:05:07.440> quite<00:05:07.680> sure<00:05:08.080> where<00:05:08.360> I<00:05:08.560> was.<00:05:09.440> Importantly,<00:05:10.039> I<00:05:10.120> wasn't<00:05:10.440> quite<00:05:10.600> sure<00:05:11.000> what<00:05:11.280> I<00:05:11.479> was,<00:05:12.320> 'cause<00:05:12.479> I

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had<00:05:12.800> expanded,<00:05:13.600> expanded,<00:05:14.320> expanded,<00:05:14.960> and<00:05:15.400> was<00:05:15.680> feeling<00:05:16.160> myself<00:05:16.600> to<00:05:16.759> be<00:05:17.080> so<00:05:17.320> much<00:05:17.560> more<00:05:17.840> than<00:05:18.080> this<00:05:18.319> child<00:05:19.080> and<00:05:19.280> this<00:05:19.440> 15-year-old<00:05:20.560> girl,<00:05:21.560> um,

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and<00:05:22.120> felt<00:05:22.440> this<00:05:22.680> incredible<00:05:23.560> peace<00:05:24.080> and<00:05:24.240> this<00:05:24.479> incredible<00:05:25.280> love.<00:05:26.000> And<00:05:26.160> there<00:05:26.280> were<00:05:26.479> no<00:05:26.759> lights,<00:05:27.280> and<00:05:27.560> there<00:05:27.680> was<00:05:27.840> kind<00:05:27.960> of<00:05:28.120> nothing<00:05:28.479> fancy<00:05:28.919> there.<00:05:29.120> It<00:05:29.199> was<00:05:29.400> this<00:05:29.919> darkness,

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but<00:05:31.311> it<00:05:31.704> was,<00:05:32.096> um,<00:05:32.489> it's<00:05:32.881> very<00:05:33.274> womb-like,<00:05:33.666> like<00:05:34.058> a<00:05:34.451> loving<00:05:34.843> darkness.<00:05:35.236> Um,<00:05:35.628> and<00:05:36.021> then<00:05:36.413> in<00:05:36.805> that<00:05:37.198> moment,<00:05:37.590> I<00:05:37.983> started<00:05:38.375> to<00:05:38.768> have,<00:05:39.160> um,

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what<00:05:39.520> we<00:05:39.680> would<00:05:40.000> consider<00:05:40.400> as<00:05:40.520> a<00:05:40.680> life<00:05:41.080> review.<00:05:42.080> So,<00:05:42.280> I<00:05:42.400> saw<00:05:42.919> every<00:05:43.400> single<00:05:43.880> nuance<00:05:44.479> and<00:05:44.720> moment<00:05:45.120> of<00:05:45.280> my<00:05:45.680> very<00:05:45.840> short<00:05:46.280> life,<00:05:46.600> 'cause<00:05:46.720> I<00:05:46.800> was<00:05:46.919> only<00:05:47.240> 15,<00:05:48.199> and

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it<00:05:48.479> just<00:05:48.960> flashed,<00:05:49.960> and<00:05:50.160> it<00:05:50.280> felt<00:05:50.560> like<00:05:50.759> forever,<00:05:51.319> but<00:05:51.479> it,<00:05:51.639> it<00:05:51.759> felt<00:05:52.039> like<00:05:52.319> no<00:05:52.680> time,<00:05:53.520> too.<00:05:54.520> So,<00:05:55.160> um,<00:05:55.680> I<00:05:55.800> was<00:05:56.120> okay.<00:05:57.039> Um,

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the<00:05:57.759> ambulance<00:05:58.319> came,<00:05:58.680> and,<00:05:58.919> and,<00:05:59.280> um,<00:05:59.440> I<00:05:59.680> wasn't<00:05:59.919> badly<00:06:00.280> injured.<00:06:01.240> Some<00:06:01.440> of<00:06:01.600> the<00:06:01.800> passengers<00:06:02.240> were<00:06:02.440> quite<00:06:02.639> injured,<00:06:03.000> but<00:06:03.160> I<00:06:03.240> was<00:06:03.440> very<00:06:04.000> lucky.<00:06:05.000> Um,<00:06:06.000> the

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problems<00:06:06.599> arose.<00:06:07.000> So,<00:06:07.120> for<00:06:07.240> two<00:06:07.400> weeks<00:06:07.759> after<00:06:08.039> that,<00:06:08.199> I<00:06:08.280> was<00:06:08.400> in,<00:06:08.800> um,<00:06:09.120> this<00:06:09.319> state<00:06:09.599> of<00:06:09.919> peace,<00:06:10.919> and<00:06:11.080> people<00:06:11.319> were<00:06:11.520> coming<00:06:11.720> to<00:06:11.880> visit<00:06:12.120> me<00:06:12.280> at<00:06:12.479> home,<00:06:12.880> and,<00:06:13.240> and<00:06:13.360> I<00:06:13.440> was<00:06:13.599> like<00:06:13.800> loving

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everybody,<00:06:15.000> even<00:06:15.280> people<00:06:15.680> I<00:06:15.840> really<00:06:16.080> didn't<00:06:16.360> like<00:06:16.720> before.<00:06:17.440> I<00:06:17.520> was<00:06:17.680> just<00:06:17.840> full<00:06:18.000> of<00:06:18.199> love<00:06:18.400> for<00:06:18.599> everybody,<00:06:19.199> and,<00:06:19.400> and<00:06:19.560> very<00:06:19.960> peaceful.<00:06:20.960> And<00:06:21.120> then<00:06:21.400> two<00:06:21.680> weeks,<00:06:22.160> I<00:06:22.240> was<00:06:22.479> fine.

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I<00:06:23.039> had<00:06:23.199> to<00:06:23.319> go<00:06:23.599> back<00:06:23.759> to<00:06:23.960> school,<00:06:24.759> and<00:06:25.000> that's<00:06:25.240> when<00:06:25.479> the<00:06:25.680> issues<00:06:26.280> began<00:06:26.840> for<00:06:27.039> me,<00:06:27.639> because<00:06:28.639> I<00:06:28.759> was<00:06:29.000> still<00:06:29.919> then<00:06:30.280> having<00:06:30.680> these<00:06:31.199> expansive

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type<00:06:32.680> experiences<00:06:33.479> where<00:06:33.639> I'd<00:06:33.840> feel<00:06:34.240> myself<00:06:34.720> all<00:06:34.880> of<00:06:34.960> a<00:06:35.160> sudden<00:06:35.960> not<00:06:36.360> kind<00:06:36.520> of<00:06:36.680> in<00:06:36.880> the<00:06:37.080> body<00:06:37.800> and<00:06:38.039> expanding<00:06:38.840> and<00:06:39.160> expanding,<00:06:40.160> and<00:06:40.280> I

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started<00:06:40.800> to<00:06:41.000> withdraw<00:06:41.639> from<00:06:41.960> people,<00:06:42.560> because,<00:06:43.240> you<00:06:43.400> know,<00:06:43.759> integration<00:06:44.479> after<00:06:44.720> an<00:06:44.960> experience<00:06:45.560> like<00:06:45.759> that<00:06:45.919> can<00:06:46.039> be<00:06:46.240> really<00:06:46.639> challenging.<00:06:47.639> And<00:06:47.800> one<00:06:47.919> of<00:06:48.039> the<00:06:48.199> reasons<00:06:48.560> it's

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so<00:06:49.160> challenging,<00:06:50.160> as<00:06:50.280> a<00:06:50.639> society,<00:06:51.639> we're<00:06:51.840> not<00:06:52.120> equipped<00:06:52.639> to<00:06:52.840> deal<00:06:53.199> with<00:06:53.400> these<00:06:53.680> kinds<00:06:53.880> of<00:06:54.160> experiences.<00:06:55.000> We<00:06:55.120> don't<00:06:55.440> talk<00:06:55.800> about<00:06:56.160> them.<00:06:57.080> Um,

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if<00:06:57.639> we<00:06:57.759> are<00:06:58.000> aware<00:06:58.319> of<00:06:58.560> them,<00:06:59.160> we<00:06:59.280> don't<00:06:59.680> do<00:06:59.879> anything<00:07:00.240> about<00:07:00.639> them,<00:07:00.960> or<00:07:01.120> we'll<00:07:01.720> categorize<00:07:02.400> them<00:07:02.639> as,<00:07:03.400> well,<00:07:03.639> it's<00:07:03.879> just<00:07:04.440> dissociation,<00:07:05.440> or<00:07:05.639> it's

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PTSD,<00:07:07.199> or<00:07:07.400> it's,<00:07:07.960> um,<00:07:08.720> but<00:07:08.879> it<00:07:09.039> wasn't<00:07:09.680> just<00:07:10.039> that.<00:07:10.319> It<00:07:10.479> was<00:07:11.199> having<00:07:11.520> this<00:07:11.720> knowing<00:07:12.199> about<00:07:12.479> yourself<00:07:13.080> as<00:07:13.199> a<00:07:13.319> 15-year-old<00:07:14.080> child<00:07:14.440> that

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there<00:07:14.921> is<00:07:15.242> just<00:07:15.564> far<00:07:15.885> more<00:07:16.207> to<00:07:16.529> this,<00:07:16.850> and<00:07:17.172> you<00:07:17.493> can't<00:07:17.815> understand<00:07:18.137> why<00:07:18.458> the<00:07:18.780> world<00:07:19.101> is<00:07:19.423> working<00:07:19.745> the<00:07:20.066> way<00:07:20.388> it<00:07:20.709> is.<00:07:21.031> It<00:07:21.353> doesn't,<00:07:21.674> nothing<00:07:21.996> seems<00:07:22.317> to<00:07:22.639> feel

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right<00:07:23.240> in<00:07:23.479> that.<00:07:24.360> So,<00:07:25.160> um,<00:07:26.160> as<00:07:26.400> time<00:07:26.720> progressed,<00:07:27.560> I<00:07:28.199> pushed<00:07:28.520> it<00:07:28.720> all<00:07:29.120> away<00:07:29.720> because<00:07:29.919> I<00:07:30.039> couldn't<00:07:30.400> deal<00:07:30.720> with<00:07:30.919> it<00:07:31.520> again,

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because<00:07:32.000> there<00:07:32.120> was<00:07:32.280> nothing<00:07:32.560> to<00:07:32.800> support<00:07:33.360> that.<00:07:34.240> And<00:07:34.840> I<00:07:34.960> guess<00:07:35.160> to<00:07:35.400> cope<00:07:35.720> with<00:07:35.960> my<00:07:36.360> pain<00:07:36.639> and<00:07:36.840> trauma,<00:07:37.520> not,<00:07:37.919> not<00:07:38.080> just<00:07:38.240> from<00:07:38.440> the<00:07:38.639> accident,<00:07:39.080> you<00:07:39.160> know,<00:07:39.599> I<00:07:39.720> had<00:07:39.840> a

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very<00:07:40.560> difficult<00:07:40.800> childhood,<00:07:41.680> you<00:07:41.800> know,<00:07:42.120> I'm,<00:07:42.400> I'm<00:07:42.599> the<00:07:42.840> daughter<00:07:43.199> of<00:07:43.319> an<00:07:43.520> alcoholic,<00:07:44.319> of<00:07:44.479> a<00:07:44.680> parent<00:07:45.039> with<00:07:45.159> an<00:07:45.759> addiction,<00:07:46.759> um,<00:07:47.159> so<00:07:47.360> there<00:07:47.479> was<00:07:47.680> lots<00:07:47.960> of<00:07:48.159> trauma

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there<00:07:48.879> too,<00:07:49.120> and<00:07:49.240> it<00:07:49.319> was<00:07:49.440> trying<00:07:49.639> to<00:07:49.840> navigate<00:07:50.400> that.<00:07:50.599> So,<00:07:50.800> to<00:07:51.000> do<00:07:51.319> that,<00:07:51.879> I<00:07:52.000> built<00:07:52.319> myself<00:07:52.720> this<00:07:52.919> big<00:07:53.159> armor<00:07:54.080> through<00:07:54.759> academia<00:07:55.759> and,<00:07:55.919> and<00:07:56.199> career,<00:07:56.840> because

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I<00:07:57.159> thought<00:07:57.440> that<00:07:57.599> would<00:07:57.879> just<00:07:58.039> make<00:07:58.240> it<00:07:58.400> all<00:07:58.639> go<00:07:58.840> away,<00:07:59.039> and<00:07:59.120> I<00:07:59.199> don't<00:07:59.599> have<00:07:59.759> to<00:08:00.400> think<00:08:00.759> about<00:08:01.039> or<00:08:01.280> be<00:08:01.560> with<00:08:01.759> what<00:08:01.960> happened,<00:08:02.319> and<00:08:02.440> I<00:08:02.560> can<00:08:02.960> have<00:08:03.159> some<00:08:03.440> kind<00:08:03.599> of<00:08:04.039> life.<00:08:05.039> Um,

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and<00:08:05.960> I<00:08:06.080> got<00:08:06.240> a<00:08:06.520> career<00:08:06.919> in<00:08:07.120> local<00:08:07.560> government.<00:08:08.039> So,<00:08:08.199> I've<00:08:08.360> worked<00:08:08.599> in<00:08:08.800> kind<00:08:08.919> of<00:08:09.319> local<00:08:09.639> government<00:08:10.120> contexts<00:08:10.800> where<00:08:11.479> I<00:08:11.680> managed<00:08:12.199> research.<00:08:12.879> Again,<00:08:13.240> this<00:08:13.319> is<00:08:13.520> where<00:08:13.879> the

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work<00:08:14.360> comes<00:08:14.599> in.<00:08:14.840> It<00:08:14.919> was<00:08:15.080> all<00:08:15.479> about,<00:08:17.000> um,<00:08:18.000> getting<00:08:18.400> services<00:08:18.919> to<00:08:19.159> recognize<00:08:19.759> the<00:08:19.960> importance<00:08:20.520> of<00:08:20.720> people's<00:08:21.159> living<00:08:22.039> experiences

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when<00:08:23.240> they<00:08:23.360> are<00:08:23.680> designing<00:08:24.319> things<00:08:24.680> like<00:08:25.000> health<00:08:25.560> or<00:08:26.360> education<00:08:27.360> or<00:08:27.599> whatever<00:08:27.960> the<00:08:28.159> service<00:08:28.639> is.<00:08:29.080> So,<00:08:29.560> that's<00:08:29.800> where<00:08:30.240> these<00:08:30.440> two<00:08:30.720> things<00:08:30.960> start<00:08:31.280> to

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then<00:08:31.680> converge.<00:08:32.159> So,<00:08:32.360> I'd<00:08:32.519> built<00:08:32.880> this,<00:08:33.440> like<00:08:33.640> this<00:08:33.880> egoic<00:08:34.360> armor<00:08:34.760> and<00:08:35.200> this<00:08:35.479> career,<00:08:35.800> and<00:08:36.000> this<00:08:36.120> is<00:08:36.240> what<00:08:36.360> I'm<00:08:36.519> going<00:08:36.719> to<00:08:36.919> do.<00:08:37.839> Um,<00:08:38.000> studied<00:08:38.440> linguistics<00:08:39.240> and<00:08:39.640> thought

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about,<00:08:40.560> you<00:08:40.719> know,<00:08:41.719> how<00:08:41.919> does<00:08:42.279> language<00:08:42.760> make<00:08:43.120> the<00:08:43.279> world<00:08:43.640> work?<00:08:44.279> You<00:08:44.360> know,<00:08:44.560> what<00:08:44.720> role<00:08:44.959> does<00:08:45.240> discourse<00:08:45.920> play?<00:08:46.600> And<00:08:46.720> for<00:08:46.920> me,<00:08:47.080> I<00:08:47.200> started<00:08:47.519> to<00:08:47.640> think,<00:08:47.839> well,<00:08:48.080> everything's

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discursive.<00:08:49.920> There's<00:08:50.200> nothing,<00:08:50.760> there's<00:08:51.000> only<00:08:51.320> language,<00:08:51.839> there's<00:08:52.040> only<00:08:52.360> discourse.<00:08:53.040> So,<00:08:53.560> I<00:08:53.600> was<00:08:53.760> also<00:08:53.959> a<00:08:54.120> hardcore<00:08:54.760> constructionist<00:08:55.600> at<00:08:55.760> this<00:08:56.000> point,<00:08:56.600> too.<00:08:57.959> Um,

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but,<00:08:59.640> um,<00:09:00.000> I<00:09:00.160> couldn't<00:09:00.519> continue<00:09:00.920> to<00:09:01.120> keep<00:09:01.519> covering<00:09:02.519> what<00:09:02.720> had<00:09:02.959> happened.<00:09:03.519> And<00:09:03.760> then<00:09:04.360> around<00:09:04.720> 10<00:09:05.079> years<00:09:05.360> ago,<00:09:05.959> I<00:09:06.079> started<00:09:06.480> to<00:09:06.720> kind<00:09:06.880> of<00:09:07.079> enter

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into<00:09:07.839> this<00:09:08.120> what<00:09:08.240> we'd<00:09:08.480> call<00:09:08.800> maybe<00:09:09.040> a<00:09:09.200> dark<00:09:09.480> night<00:09:09.720> of<00:09:09.880> the<00:09:10.040> soul,<00:09:10.880> where<00:09:11.079> the<00:09:11.279> cracks<00:09:11.760> started<00:09:12.200> to<00:09:12.440> open<00:09:12.839> and<00:09:13.560> everything<00:09:14.000> started<00:09:14.399> to<00:09:14.560> seep<00:09:15.040> out,<00:09:15.320> and<00:09:15.519> memories<00:09:16.000> of

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being<00:09:17.000> young<00:09:17.519> and,<00:09:17.720> and<00:09:17.920> what<00:09:18.160> happened<00:09:18.600> in,<00:09:18.880> in<00:09:19.000> the<00:09:19.200> accident,<00:09:19.600> and<00:09:19.720> it<00:09:19.880> just<00:09:20.040> wouldn't<00:09:20.399> leave<00:09:20.600> me<00:09:20.800> alone,<00:09:21.760> and<00:09:22.000> I<00:09:22.120> couldn't<00:09:22.440> cover<00:09:22.680> it<00:09:22.839> anymore<00:09:23.560> and<00:09:24.240> had<00:09:24.399> to<00:09:24.720> process

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it.<00:09:25.277> It<00:09:25.554> broke.<00:09:25.832> I<00:09:26.109> deal<00:09:26.386> with<00:09:26.663> it.<00:09:26.941> Yeah,<00:09:27.218> well,<00:09:27.495> I,<00:09:27.772> it<00:09:28.050> was<00:09:28.327> all<00:09:28.604> of<00:09:28.881> a<00:09:29.159> sudden,<00:09:29.436> I<00:09:29.713> am,<00:09:29.990> um,<00:09:30.268> I<00:09:30.545> will<00:09:30.822> share<00:09:31.099> this<00:09:31.377> bit<00:09:31.654> of<00:09:31.931> the<00:09:32.208> story.<00:09:32.486> Um,<00:09:32.763> it<00:09:33.040> got

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so<00:09:33.600> bad<00:09:33.959> that<00:09:34.160> I<00:09:34.279> decided<00:09:34.720> I<00:09:34.839> couldn't<00:09:35.079> live<00:09:35.320> with<00:09:35.560> myself<00:09:36.399> anymore,<00:09:37.399> and<00:09:37.880> one<00:09:38.120> day<00:09:38.440> decided<00:09:39.000> I,<00:09:39.200> I<00:09:39.279> wasn't<00:09:39.600> going<00:09:39.800> to<00:09:39.959> live<00:09:40.160> with<00:09:40.399> myself<00:09:41.040> and<00:09:41.519> wanted

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to<00:09:42.040> end<00:09:42.279> it<00:09:42.480> all<00:09:42.760> and<00:09:43.560> planned<00:09:44.160> to,<00:09:44.680> to<00:09:44.880> take<00:09:45.360> tablets<00:09:45.880> and<00:09:46.279> to<00:09:46.519> have<00:09:46.720> done<00:09:47.000> with<00:09:47.200> all<00:09:47.720> this.<00:09:48.720> And<00:09:49.240> as<00:09:49.399> I<00:09:49.560> was<00:09:50.399> moving

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towards<00:09:51.560> doing<00:09:52.040> this,<00:09:52.480> something<00:09:52.880> just<00:09:53.160> happened<00:09:53.640> again,<00:09:53.920> where<00:09:54.079> it<00:09:54.200> was<00:09:54.399> almost<00:09:54.800> a<00:09:55.120> repeat<00:09:56.120> of<00:09:56.360> what<00:09:56.600> happened<00:09:57.000> when<00:09:57.160> I<00:09:57.279> was<00:09:57.480> 15,<00:09:58.240> that<00:09:58.560> something<00:09:58.920> pushed<00:09:59.399> through,

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and<00:09:59.839> again,<00:10:00.079> I<00:10:00.399> expanded,<00:10:01.399> and<00:10:01.560> I<00:10:01.720> just<00:10:02.000> expanded,<00:10:02.519> and<00:10:02.680> I<00:10:02.800> felt<00:10:03.160> that<00:10:03.399> love,<00:10:04.399> uh,<00:10:04.560> and<00:10:04.760> that<00:10:05.040> peace.<00:10:05.959> And<00:10:06.120> of<00:10:06.320> course,<00:10:06.720> that<00:10:06.880> was<00:10:07.040> it.<00:10:07.600> I<00:10:07.720> was

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I<00:10:08.438> was<00:10:08.757> okay.<00:10:09.075> And<00:10:09.394> then<00:10:09.712> from<00:10:10.031> that<00:10:10.349> moment,<00:10:10.667> um,<00:10:10.986> you<00:10:11.304> know,<00:10:11.623> me<00:10:11.941> as<00:10:12.260> a<00:10:12.578> 15-year-old,<00:10:12.896> I<00:10:13.215> pushed<00:10:13.533> it<00:10:13.852> and<00:10:14.170> didn't<00:10:14.488> want<00:10:14.807> it<00:10:15.125> and<00:10:15.444> needed<00:10:15.762> to<00:10:16.081> integrate,<00:10:16.399> and

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me,<00:10:17.240> you<00:10:17.360> know,<00:10:17.680> as,<00:10:17.920> as<00:10:18.000> an<00:10:18.160> older<00:10:18.480> woman,<00:10:18.800> was,<00:10:19.399> I<00:10:19.560> need<00:10:19.760> to<00:10:19.920> know<00:10:20.160> what<00:10:20.399> this<00:10:20.640> is.<00:10:21.040> You<00:10:21.160> know,<00:10:21.519> what<00:10:21.920> is<00:10:22.240> this?<00:10:22.959> What<00:10:23.279> is<00:10:23.600> this?<00:10:23.959> I<00:10:24.160> recognize<00:10:24.760> this

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as<00:10:25.279> me.<00:10:25.880> This<00:10:26.000> is<00:10:26.240> a<00:10:26.560> true<00:10:27.000> version<00:10:27.320> of<00:10:27.519> me,<00:10:27.800> but<00:10:28.240> I<00:10:28.320> need<00:10:28.519> to<00:10:28.640> know<00:10:28.839> more<00:10:29.040> about,<00:10:29.360> about<00:10:29.680> this.<00:10:30.360> So,<00:10:30.720> I<00:10:30.880> started<00:10:31.279> to<00:10:31.519> explore<00:10:32.360> what<00:10:32.560> that<00:10:32.800> was<00:10:33.120> through

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listening<00:10:33.920> to<00:10:34.680> people,<00:10:35.680> um,<00:10:36.160> listening<00:10:36.519> to<00:10:36.800> spiritual<00:10:37.760> teachers,<00:10:38.760> um,<00:10:39.040> and<00:10:39.279> then<00:10:39.600> finding<00:10:40.320> academics<00:10:41.040> that<00:10:41.160> were<00:10:41.399> actually<00:10:42.000> talking

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about<00:10:42.959> this,<00:10:43.240> but<00:10:43.399> more<00:10:43.639> in<00:10:43.720> a<00:10:43.920> more<00:10:44.680> scientific<00:10:45.320> and<00:10:45.560> academic<00:10:46.079> way.<00:10:46.560> So,<00:10:46.760> then<00:10:46.920> I<00:10:47.120> converged<00:10:47.920> linguistics<00:10:48.680> and<00:10:49.040> my<00:10:49.200> research<00:10:49.680> with<00:10:49.920> children<00:10:50.480> with,<00:10:51.120> okay,

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we're<00:10:51.720> going<00:10:51.880> to<00:10:52.120> explore<00:10:52.600> this<00:10:52.839> now.<00:10:53.040> And<00:10:53.240> that's,<00:10:53.760> that's<00:10:54.000> how<00:10:54.200> the<00:10:54.360> work<00:10:54.959> began.<00:10:55.959> So,<00:10:56.200> Donna,<00:10:56.519> that<00:10:56.760> experience<00:10:57.240> actually<00:10:57.560> leads<00:10:57.920> you<00:10:58.120> to<00:10:58.320> do<00:10:58.600> research<00:11:00.279> with

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children,<00:11:01.480> right?<00:11:02.000> You,<00:11:02.160> you<00:11:02.320> always<00:11:02.680> emphasize<00:11:03.160> that<00:11:03.399> with<00:11:03.600> children<00:11:03.959> and<00:11:04.120> not<00:11:04.320> on<00:11:04.600> children.<00:11:05.240> Yeah,<00:11:05.560> why<00:11:05.720> do<00:11:05.839> you<00:11:06.040> think<00:11:06.200> it's<00:11:06.440> so<00:11:06.639> important<00:11:07.360> with<00:11:07.680> children?<00:11:08.680> Yeah,

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so,<00:11:10.079> um,<00:11:11.079> when<00:11:11.360> children<00:11:11.800> are<00:11:12.480> invited<00:11:13.079> into<00:11:13.519> research,<00:11:14.320> which<00:11:14.959> isn't<00:11:15.480> that<00:11:15.680> often,<00:11:16.279> especially<00:11:17.279> in<00:11:17.480> fields

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um,<00:11:18.693> such<00:11:19.065> as<00:11:19.438> the<00:11:19.811> hard<00:11:20.183> sciences<00:11:20.556> or<00:11:20.929> health,<00:11:21.301> um,<00:11:21.674> and<00:11:22.047> sometimes<00:11:22.420> even<00:11:22.792> in<00:11:23.165> fields<00:11:23.538> such<00:11:23.910> as<00:11:24.283> education,<00:11:24.656> which<00:11:25.028> is<00:11:25.401> very<00:11:25.774> child-centered,<00:11:26.146> children<00:11:26.519> are

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not<00:11:27.097> often<00:11:27.555> invited<00:11:28.013> into<00:11:28.470> research,<00:11:28.928> and<00:11:29.386> that's<00:11:29.844> because<00:11:30.302> they're<00:11:30.760> viewed<00:11:31.217> as<00:11:31.675> incapable<00:11:32.133> of<00:11:32.591> taking<00:11:33.049> part.<00:11:33.507> They're<00:11:33.964> not<00:11:34.422> really<00:11:34.880> seen

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as<00:11:35.399> knowers<00:11:36.120> of<00:11:36.560> knowledge,<00:11:37.560> um,<00:11:37.760> they're<00:11:38.040> always<00:11:38.839> kind<00:11:39.000> of<00:11:39.160> seen<00:11:39.560> as<00:11:39.839> becoming<00:11:40.480> adult<00:11:41.399> rather<00:11:41.680> than<00:11:41.839> a<00:11:42.000> being<00:11:42.600> in<00:11:42.760> their<00:11:42.959> own<00:11:43.560> right.

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Um,<00:11:45.440> and<00:11:45.560> then<00:11:45.760> often<00:11:46.079> when<00:11:46.200> we<00:11:46.360> do<00:11:46.560> bring<00:11:46.880> children<00:11:47.240> into<00:11:47.560> research,<00:11:48.160> we<00:11:48.279> are<00:11:48.800> researching<00:11:49.600> on<00:11:50.000> them,<00:11:51.000> um,<00:11:51.480> and<00:11:51.639> we're<00:11:51.880> positioning<00:11:52.480> children<00:11:52.880> as

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these<00:11:53.720> passive<00:11:54.720> objects<00:11:55.240> or<00:11:55.600> passive<00:11:56.040> subjects,<00:11:56.800> and<00:11:57.399> rather<00:11:57.760> than<00:11:58.120> active<00:11:58.519> agents,<00:11:59.880> um,<00:12:00.200> and<00:12:00.480> that's<00:12:00.680> the<00:12:00.880> difference.<00:12:01.399> So,

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it's<00:12:02.320> the,<00:12:02.480> the<00:12:02.639> kind<00:12:02.760> of<00:12:03.000> partners<00:12:03.399> in<00:12:04.639> research,<00:12:05.639> that's<00:12:05.800> the<00:12:05.959> difference<00:12:06.279> between<00:12:06.600> with<00:12:06.880> and<00:12:07.040> on.<00:12:07.800> Mhm.<00:12:08.560> And<00:12:08.760> kids<00:12:09.000> feel<00:12:09.240> it,<00:12:09.480> I<00:12:09.600> think.<00:12:10.399> I

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I<00:12:10.680> would<00:12:10.880> imagine<00:12:11.279> they<00:12:11.399> feel<00:12:11.639> it,<00:12:11.800> or<00:12:12.000> not.<00:12:12.720> Absolutely.<00:12:13.399> Being<00:12:13.519> a<00:12:13.680> subject<00:12:14.120> or<00:12:14.279> being<00:12:14.440> a<00:12:14.560> partner<00:12:14.839> in<00:12:14.959> research,<00:12:15.480> I<00:12:15.600> think<00:12:15.839> that's,<00:12:16.800> they,<00:12:17.040> when,<00:12:17.360> when<00:12:17.480> you<00:12:17.680> make<00:12:18.240> a<00:12:18.399> child

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a<00:12:18.959> research<00:12:19.480> partner,<00:12:19.920> they<00:12:20.079> come<00:12:20.279> to<00:12:20.800> life.<00:12:21.800> You<00:12:21.959> know,<00:12:22.240> that<00:12:22.480> creativity<00:12:23.279> is<00:12:23.440> flowing,<00:12:24.279> their,<00:12:24.519> their<00:12:24.839> ideas<00:12:25.279> are<00:12:25.480> flowing.<00:12:26.480> I<00:12:26.560> mean,<00:12:26.920> they

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will<00:12:27.320> tell<00:12:27.600> you<00:12:27.880> things<00:12:28.160> that<00:12:28.440> you've<00:12:28.720> not<00:12:29.000> even<00:12:29.280> considered<00:12:29.560> before<00:12:29.840> you've<00:12:30.120> started<00:12:30.400> the<00:12:30.680> research.<00:12:30.960> And,<00:12:31.240> and<00:12:31.520> there's<00:12:31.800> lots<00:12:32.080> of<00:12:32.360> ways<00:12:32.640> we<00:12:32.920> do<00:12:33.200> involve<00:12:33.480> children

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in<00:12:34.108> research.<00:12:34.415> So,<00:12:34.723> they<00:12:35.031> can<00:12:35.338> be<00:12:35.646> co-designers.<00:12:35.954> So,<00:12:36.262> children<00:12:36.569> can<00:12:36.877> come<00:12:37.185> in<00:12:37.492> right<00:12:37.800> at<00:12:38.108> the<00:12:38.415> beginning<00:12:38.723> of<00:12:39.031> a<00:12:39.338> research<00:12:39.646> project<00:12:39.954> and<00:12:40.262> help<00:12:40.569> you<00:12:40.877> to<00:12:41.185> design<00:12:41.492> that<00:12:41.800> research

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and<00:12:42.959> think<00:12:43.160> about<00:12:43.480> who<00:12:43.680> might<00:12:44.040> participate<00:12:44.760> in<00:12:44.959> that.<00:12:45.240> You<00:12:45.360> know,<00:12:45.680> help<00:12:45.920> to<00:12:46.079> bring<00:12:46.440> participants<00:12:47.079> in,<00:12:47.279> other<00:12:47.639> children.<00:12:48.639> And<00:12:48.839> you<00:12:49.000> can<00:12:49.160> train<00:12:49.519> children<00:12:49.880> to<00:12:50.040> do<00:12:50.360> qualitative

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research,<00:12:52.480> um,<00:12:52.760> and<00:12:52.920> then<00:12:53.160> we<00:12:53.279> do<00:12:53.519> things<00:12:53.800> such<00:12:53.959> as<00:12:54.199> peer<00:12:54.560> research,<00:12:55.279> where,<00:12:56.079> as,<00:12:56.320> as<00:12:56.480> we're<00:12:56.720> speaking<00:12:57.199> now,<00:12:57.440> you<00:12:57.560> might<00:12:57.800> have<00:12:58.000> two<00:12:58.240> children,<00:12:58.720> with<00:12:58.880> one<00:12:59.279> of<00:12:59.399> them,<00:12:59.600> the

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researcher,<00:13:00.880> asking<00:13:01.240> another<00:13:01.560> child<00:13:01.839> a<00:13:02.079> question.<00:13:02.880> And<00:13:03.079> again,<00:13:03.360> that's<00:13:03.639> amazing,<00:13:04.519> that<00:13:04.959> dynamic<00:13:05.560> between<00:13:06.000> children<00:13:06.639> and<00:13:06.959> that<00:13:07.240> level<00:13:07.519> of<00:13:07.760> information<00:13:08.399> that

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can<00:13:08.839> come.<00:13:09.560> So,<00:13:09.720> there's<00:13:09.920> all<00:13:10.320> different<00:13:10.639> kinds<00:13:10.880> of<00:13:11.079> ways<00:13:11.320> to<00:13:11.519> involve<00:13:11.920> children<00:13:12.720> in<00:13:14.040> research.<00:13:15.040> But<00:13:15.320> how,<00:13:15.920> practically<00:13:16.399> speaking,<00:13:17.000> how

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does<00:13:17.663> your<00:13:18.086> research<00:13:18.509> look<00:13:18.932> like?<00:13:19.356> What<00:13:19.779> do<00:13:20.202> you<00:13:20.625> do<00:13:21.048> actually<00:13:21.471> with<00:13:21.894> kids?<00:13:22.317> Real,<00:13:22.740> real<00:13:23.163> research.<00:13:23.587> Yeah.<00:13:24.010> So,<00:13:24.433> um,<00:13:24.856> it<00:13:25.279> depends

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on<00:13:26.079> the<00:13:26.320> project.<00:13:27.000> So,<00:13:27.440> and<00:13:27.680> there's<00:13:27.920> always<00:13:28.199> a<00:13:28.399> degree,<00:13:29.839> um,<00:13:30.000> of<00:13:30.279> agency<00:13:30.920> for<00:13:31.160> children,<00:13:31.680> depending<00:13:32.240> on,<00:13:33.040> and<00:13:33.160> it's,<00:13:33.519> it<00:13:33.600> might<00:13:33.760> be<00:13:33.880> best

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to<00:13:34.199> give<00:13:34.440> examples<00:13:35.079> rather<00:13:35.440> than<00:13:35.639> to<00:13:36.199> explain<00:13:36.680> a<00:13:36.880> specific,<00:13:37.800> well,<00:13:37.959> it's<00:13:38.160> qualitative<00:13:38.880> research.<00:13:39.560> So,<00:13:39.839> it's<00:13:40.079> the<00:13:40.279> idea<00:13:41.199> that,<00:13:42.959> um,

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it's<00:13:44.360> epistemological<00:13:45.360> authority<00:13:45.959> of<00:13:46.240> people.<00:13:46.800> So,<00:13:47.040> they<00:13:47.160> are<00:13:47.440> knowers<00:13:48.160> of<00:13:48.399> their<00:13:48.600> own,<00:13:49.079> they<00:13:49.199> are<00:13:49.519> experts<00:13:50.040> in<00:13:50.199> their<00:13:50.360> own<00:13:50.600> living<00:13:51.079> experience.<00:13:51.680> And<00:13:51.839> in<00:13:52.240> qualitative

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research,<00:13:53.959> that's<00:13:54.240> kind<00:13:54.399> of<00:13:54.560> the<00:13:54.839> primary<00:13:55.759> data.<00:13:56.759> Now,<00:13:57.000> in<00:13:57.199> traditional<00:13:57.800> qualitative<00:13:58.519> research,<00:13:59.279> and,<00:13:59.440> and<00:13:59.600> even<00:13:59.920> that<00:14:00.160> carries<00:14:00.600> this,<00:14:01.120> it's<00:14:01.240> underpinned

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by<00:14:02.327> this<00:14:02.773> kind<00:14:03.220> of<00:14:03.667> logical<00:14:04.113> empiricism.<00:14:04.560> And<00:14:05.007> because<00:14:05.453> historically,<00:14:05.900> qualitative<00:14:06.347> research<00:14:06.793> had<00:14:07.240> to<00:14:07.687> fight<00:14:08.133> to<00:14:08.580> be<00:14:09.027> seen<00:14:09.473> as<00:14:09.920> a

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a<00:14:10.240> proper<00:14:10.600> science,<00:14:11.040> as<00:14:11.240> real<00:14:11.639> research,<00:14:12.600> it<00:14:12.759> had<00:14:12.920> to<00:14:13.000> be<00:14:13.120> seen<00:14:13.360> as<00:14:13.519> rigorous.<00:14:14.120> But<00:14:14.639> the<00:14:14.839> consequence<00:14:15.480> of<00:14:15.720> that<00:14:15.880> is<00:14:16.079> then<00:14:16.320> we<00:14:16.480> have<00:14:16.600> to<00:14:16.759> try<00:14:17.000> and<00:14:17.320> measure<00:14:18.279> human

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experience,<00:14:19.639> measure<00:14:20.360> the<00:14:20.680> immeasurable,<00:14:21.480> something<00:14:21.839> that,<00:14:22.240> you<00:14:22.360> know,<00:14:23.120> we<00:14:23.279> can't<00:14:23.639> really<00:14:24.199> take<00:14:24.600> those<00:14:24.920> kinds<00:14:25.199> of<00:14:25.680> scientific<00:14:26.680> methodologies<00:14:27.680> and

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put<00:14:28.264> them<00:14:28.647> onto<00:14:29.031> subjective,<00:14:29.415> living,<00:14:29.798> fluid<00:14:30.182> experiences<00:14:30.565> of<00:14:30.949> human<00:14:31.333> beings.<00:14:31.716> So,<00:14:32.100> you<00:14:32.484> know,<00:14:32.867> as<00:14:33.251> a<00:14:33.635> response<00:14:34.018> to<00:14:34.402> that,<00:14:34.785> this<00:14:35.169> is<00:14:35.553> why<00:14:35.936> these,<00:14:36.320> these

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kind<00:14:36.720> of<00:14:37.759> non-traditional,<00:14:38.759> um,<00:14:39.399> research<00:14:40.120> methodologies<00:14:41.120> came<00:14:41.440> around,<00:14:41.920> because<00:14:42.040> it<00:14:42.120> was<00:14:42.240> to<00:14:42.399> challenge<00:14:42.839> that<00:14:43.120> idea<00:14:43.519> of<00:14:43.720> that<00:14:43.920> traditional<00:14:45.000> research.

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Um,<00:14:46.560> and<00:14:46.839> what<00:14:47.079> that<00:14:47.279> means<00:14:47.680> is<00:14:47.920> that<00:14:48.320> it<00:14:48.480> can<00:14:48.639> be<00:14:48.880> more<00:14:49.480> creative.<00:14:50.480> We<00:14:50.639> can,<00:14:51.000> we<00:14:51.120> can<00:14:51.680> place<00:14:52.199> value<00:14:52.759> on<00:14:53.199> different<00:14:53.680> kinds<00:14:54.000> of

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knowledges<00:14:55.680> rather<00:14:55.959> than<00:14:56.199> just<00:14:56.399> that<00:14:56.600> one<00:14:57.399> scientific,<00:14:58.399> numerical,<00:14:59.720> statistical.<00:15:00.720> That's,<00:15:01.000> that's<00:15:01.199> one<00:15:01.480> knowledge,<00:15:01.880> but<00:15:02.040> that's<00:15:02.320> knowledge<00:15:02.720> that

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carries<00:15:03.600> value.<00:15:04.600> But<00:15:04.839> in<00:15:05.000> reality,<00:15:05.519> there<00:15:05.680> are<00:15:06.240> a<00:15:06.399> range<00:15:06.680> of<00:15:06.880> different<00:15:07.399> knowledges,<00:15:08.399> a,<00:15:08.759> a<00:15:08.880> range<00:15:09.160> of<00:15:09.360> different<00:15:09.680> ways<00:15:09.959> that<00:15:10.199> people<00:15:10.560> represent<00:15:11.199> that

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knowledge.<00:15:11.800> So,<00:15:12.079> for<00:15:12.240> a<00:15:12.720> child,<00:15:13.720> um,<00:15:14.240> you<00:15:14.360> know,<00:15:14.519> they're<00:15:14.680> not<00:15:14.839> going<00:15:14.959> to<00:15:15.160> write<00:15:15.399> you<00:15:15.839> an<00:15:16.040> essay,<00:15:16.519> or,<00:15:17.399> um,<00:15:17.560> but<00:15:17.759> they<00:15:17.880> may<00:15:18.079> draw<00:15:18.360> a<00:15:18.600> picture,<00:15:19.199> and<00:15:19.399> that's

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that's<00:15:19.880> a<00:15:20.079> knowledge,<00:15:20.519> and<00:15:20.639> it's<00:15:20.759> a<00:15:20.920> form<00:15:21.240> of<00:15:21.440> representation.<00:15:22.440> So,<00:15:22.600> we<00:15:22.720> use<00:15:23.040> creative<00:15:24.240> methodologies,<00:15:25.240> um,<00:15:25.880> but<00:15:26.040> we<00:15:26.160> can<00:15:26.279> also<00:15:26.480> use<00:15:26.720> traditional,<00:15:27.240> too.<00:15:27.519> And<00:15:27.680> that<00:15:27.800> all

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depends.<00:15:29.279> So,<00:15:29.839> um,<00:15:30.759> in<00:15:30.959> some<00:15:31.160> of<00:15:31.279> the<00:15:31.399> studies,<00:15:31.720> an<00:15:31.920> example<00:15:32.360> is<00:15:32.680> we,<00:15:33.319> um,<00:15:33.480> have<00:15:33.639> just<00:15:33.839> completed<00:15:34.279> a<00:15:34.480> study,<00:15:34.839> a<00:15:35.000> pilot<00:15:35.440> study,<00:15:35.839> that's<00:15:36.399> researching

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near-death<00:15:37.630> experiences<00:15:38.140> or<00:15:38.650> extrasensory<00:15:39.160> experiences<00:15:39.670> with,<00:15:40.180> um,<00:15:40.690> children<00:15:41.200> aged<00:15:41.709> between,<00:15:42.219> I<00:15:42.729> think<00:15:43.239> it's<00:15:43.749> six<00:15:44.259> and<00:15:44.769> 18,<00:15:45.279> in

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an<00:15:45.639> intensive<00:15:46.240> care<00:15:46.759> unit.<00:15:47.759> So,<00:15:48.160> the<00:15:48.360> purpose<00:15:48.720> of<00:15:48.920> this<00:15:49.120> research,<00:15:49.800> again,<00:15:50.199> is<00:15:50.480> that,<00:15:50.920> um,<00:15:51.600> things<00:15:51.880> don't<00:15:52.199> work<00:15:52.560> very<00:15:52.800> well<00:15:53.120> for<00:15:53.360> families<00:15:53.839> in

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intensive<00:15:54.600> care<00:15:54.880> units,<00:15:55.519> because<00:15:56.480> from<00:15:56.720> their<00:15:57.000> perspective,<00:15:57.519> doctors<00:15:57.920> don't<00:15:58.199> listen<00:15:58.560> to<00:15:58.720> what<00:15:59.040> they<00:15:59.199> want<00:15:59.399> and<00:15:59.600> need.<00:15:59.959> It's<00:16:00.240> very<00:16:00.519> kind<00:16:00.759> of<00:16:01.000> cold.<00:16:01.480> And<00:16:02.160> again,

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we're<00:16:02.519> about<00:16:02.720> to<00:16:02.880> measuring<00:16:03.440> this,<00:16:03.639> but<00:16:03.800> there's<00:16:04.040> so<00:16:04.279> much<00:16:04.480> more<00:16:04.839> going<00:16:05.079> on<00:16:05.680> in<00:16:05.839> an<00:16:06.040> intensive<00:16:06.560> care<00:16:06.959> unit,<00:16:07.639> especially<00:16:08.120> when<00:16:08.279> a<00:16:08.480> child<00:16:08.920> is<00:16:09.079> near<00:16:09.360> to<00:16:09.839> death,<00:16:11.160> um,

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so,<00:16:12.680> um,<00:16:12.880> the<00:16:13.000> way<00:16:13.160> we'd<00:16:13.399> set<00:16:13.600> up<00:16:13.800> that<00:16:14.040> project<00:16:14.440> is<00:16:14.600> that<00:16:14.720> we<00:16:14.880> have<00:16:15.040> to<00:16:15.120> go<00:16:15.279> through<00:16:15.519> very<00:16:15.759> rigorous<00:16:16.240> research<00:16:16.839> ethics<00:16:17.279> that<00:16:17.440> can<00:16:17.639> take<00:16:17.880> 18<00:16:18.399> months.<00:16:19.160> We<00:16:19.319> have<00:16:19.480> to,<00:16:20.360> uh,

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design<00:16:20.920> a<00:16:21.440> methodology.<00:16:22.440> So,<00:16:22.920> um,<00:16:23.319> we<00:16:23.519> can't<00:16:23.759> do<00:16:24.000> verbal<00:16:24.440> interviews<00:16:25.000> with<00:16:25.160> some<00:16:25.279> of<00:16:25.480> these<00:16:25.680> children.<00:16:26.600> So,<00:16:26.800> that's<00:16:27.000> when<00:16:27.160> we<00:16:27.319> bring<00:16:27.519> in<00:16:27.759> methods<00:16:28.240> such<00:16:28.399> as<00:16:28.560> art

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and<00:16:29.440> play,<00:16:30.440> and,<00:16:30.639> and<00:16:30.839> bring<00:16:31.160> that<00:16:31.319> in<00:16:31.560> so<00:16:31.839> that<00:16:32.079> we<00:16:32.199> can<00:16:32.480> ask<00:16:32.880> questions<00:16:33.519> with<00:16:33.759> children<00:16:34.279> and<00:16:34.480> their<00:16:34.720> parents<00:16:35.120> if<00:16:35.279> they're<00:16:35.480> very<00:16:35.720> young.<00:16:36.560> You<00:16:36.720> know,<00:16:37.639> um,

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we<00:16:38.190> have<00:16:38.542> three<00:16:38.893> magic<00:16:39.244> questions,<00:16:39.596> actually.<00:16:39.947> So,<00:16:40.298> some<00:16:40.650> of<00:16:41.001> these<00:16:41.352> children<00:16:41.704> have<00:16:42.055> actually<00:16:42.407> died<00:16:42.758> two<00:16:43.109> or<00:16:43.461> three<00:16:43.812> times<00:16:44.163> in,<00:16:44.515> in<00:16:44.866> ICU,<00:16:45.217> and,<00:16:45.569> and<00:16:45.920> have

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been<00:16:46.560> resuscitated.<00:16:47.560> So,<00:16:47.800> we'll<00:16:48.079> ask,<00:16:48.319> you<00:16:48.440> know,<00:16:48.959> what<00:16:49.240> happened<00:16:49.680> before<00:16:50.000> you<00:16:50.199> fell<00:16:50.519> asleep<00:16:50.959> or<00:16:51.199> lost<00:16:52.079> consciousness?<00:16:53.079> Um,<00:16:53.480> what<00:16:53.759> happened<00:16:54.399> when

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you<00:16:54.680> woke<00:16:55.079> up?<00:16:56.079> And<00:16:56.240> then,<00:16:56.639> kind<00:16:56.759> of<00:16:56.880> the<00:16:57.079> killer<00:16:57.440> question,<00:16:58.240> what<00:16:58.440> happened<00:16:59.079> in<00:16:59.199> the<00:16:59.639> middle?<00:17:00.639> Because<00:17:00.959> that's<00:17:01.199> kind<00:17:01.319> of<00:17:01.440> a<00:17:01.639> question<00:17:02.120> that<00:17:02.480> we<00:17:02.600> wouldn't

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think<00:17:03.120> to<00:17:03.399> ask,<00:17:04.039> because<00:17:05.000> they're<00:17:05.240> unconscious<00:17:05.880> or<00:17:06.400> they've<00:17:06.640> died,<00:17:07.039> or,<00:17:07.919> um,<00:17:08.199> and<00:17:08.400> children<00:17:08.839> report<00:17:09.439> things<00:17:09.760> that<00:17:09.919> have<00:17:10.039> been<00:17:10.280> happening<00:17:10.720> that<00:17:10.839> are<00:17:11.000> very

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similar,<00:17:11.600> for<00:17:11.799> example,<00:17:12.319> to<00:17:13.039> near-death<00:17:14.240> experiences.<00:17:15.240> And<00:17:15.520> what<00:17:15.679> was<00:17:15.919> the<00:17:16.280> most<00:17:17.600> interesting<00:17:18.600> case<00:17:18.880> that<00:17:19.039> you<00:17:19.199> came<00:17:19.439> across?

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During<00:17:20.000> your<00:17:21.400> research,<00:17:22.400> um,<00:17:23.120> that<00:17:23.280> there's<00:17:23.480> so<00:17:23.799> many<00:17:24.120> interesting<00:17:24.839> cases,<00:17:25.600> I<00:17:25.760> think<00:17:26.760> the<00:17:27.160> my<00:17:27.439> favorite<00:17:28.000> experiences

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are<00:17:29.679> these<00:17:30.120> transcendental<00:17:31.120> type<00:17:31.600> experiences,<00:17:32.400> and<00:17:32.600> these<00:17:32.760> are<00:17:32.919> the<00:17:33.120> experiences<00:17:33.720> that<00:17:33.919> I<00:17:34.039> am<00:17:34.480> really,<00:17:34.799> really<00:17:35.120> interested<00:17:35.760> in,<00:17:36.760> um,<00:17:37.200> simply

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because<00:17:37.960> they<00:17:38.160> might<00:17:38.440> tell<00:17:38.720> us<00:17:39.240> things<00:17:39.640> about<00:17:40.320> consciousness<00:17:41.000> or<00:17:41.840> self,<00:17:42.840> um,<00:17:43.559> that<00:17:43.760> we<00:17:43.960> might<00:17:44.160> not<00:17:44.360> be<00:17:44.520> able<00:17:44.880> to<00:17:45.160> get<00:17:45.559> from<00:17:46.039> just

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researching<00:17:46.960> some<00:17:47.120> of<00:17:47.280> the<00:17:47.360> other<00:17:47.640> kinds<00:17:47.880> of<00:17:48.120> experiences<00:17:48.880> such<00:17:49.039> as,<00:17:49.919> um,<00:17:50.600> telepathy<00:17:51.600> or,<00:17:52.320> um,<00:17:53.000> you<00:17:53.080> know,<00:17:53.440> many,<00:17:53.720> many<00:17:54.000> children<00:17:54.320> in

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my<00:17:54.679> study,<00:17:55.200> some<00:17:55.360> of,<00:17:55.600> some<00:17:55.720> of<00:17:55.840> the<00:17:55.960> most<00:17:56.159> reported<00:17:56.720> experiences<00:17:57.559> are<00:17:57.880> things<00:17:58.240> like<00:17:58.440> engage,<00:17:58.799> engaging<00:17:59.240> with<00:17:59.799> beings<00:18:00.360> that<00:18:00.559> other<00:18:00.760> people<00:18:01.080> can't<00:18:01.360> see<00:18:02.120> and<00:18:02.360> not<00:18:02.640> imaginary

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friends.<00:18:03.799> These<00:18:03.919> are<00:18:04.480> beings<00:18:04.840> of<00:18:05.039> all<00:18:05.240> different<00:18:05.520> shapes<00:18:05.880> and<00:18:06.120> sizes,<00:18:06.559> so<00:18:06.880> some<00:18:07.200> that,<00:18:07.440> that<00:18:07.640> apparently<00:18:08.039> look<00:18:08.280> like<00:18:08.600> people,<00:18:09.520> some<00:18:09.760> that<00:18:09.880> look<00:18:10.080> like<00:18:10.360> animals,<00:18:11.200> some<00:18:11.440> that

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look<00:18:11.880> really<00:18:12.240> strange<00:18:12.840> and<00:18:13.039> that<00:18:13.240> they<00:18:13.400> can't<00:18:13.640> really<00:18:13.960> describe,<00:18:14.480> but<00:18:14.679> they<00:18:14.840> can,<00:18:15.159> they<00:18:15.280> can<00:18:15.840> draw,<00:18:16.840> um,<00:18:17.760> so<00:18:18.080> they,<00:18:18.240> they<00:18:18.360> see<00:18:18.760> a<00:18:18.919> whole<00:18:19.159> range<00:18:19.400> of<00:18:19.600> beings

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that<00:18:20.252> other<00:18:20.585> people<00:18:20.918> can't<00:18:21.250> see.<00:18:21.583> And<00:18:21.916> the<00:18:22.249> other<00:18:22.582> one<00:18:22.915> is,<00:18:23.247> um,<00:18:23.580> out-of-body<00:18:23.913> experiences,<00:18:24.246> that,<00:18:24.579> that<00:18:24.912> is,<00:18:25.244> we<00:18:25.577> always<00:18:25.910> have<00:18:26.243> a<00:18:26.576> real<00:18:26.909> high<00:18:27.241> incidence<00:18:27.574> of<00:18:27.907> children<00:18:28.240> reporting

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out-of-body<00:18:29.341> experiences.<00:18:29.763> So<00:18:30.185> the<00:18:30.607> transcendental<00:18:31.029> ones<00:18:31.451> are<00:18:31.873> my<00:18:32.295> favorite,<00:18:32.717> and,<00:18:33.140> and<00:18:33.562> I<00:18:33.984> think<00:18:34.406> what<00:18:34.828> blows<00:18:35.250> me<00:18:35.672> away<00:18:36.094> is<00:18:36.516> when,<00:18:36.938> um,<00:18:37.360> one

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that<00:18:37.760> really<00:18:38.080> sticks<00:18:38.440> in<00:18:38.600> my<00:18:38.840> mind,<00:18:39.480> again,<00:18:40.000> and<00:18:40.240> maybe<00:18:40.520> because<00:18:40.679> it<00:18:40.799> resonates<00:18:41.400> with<00:18:41.600> me<00:18:41.919> so<00:18:42.200> much,<00:18:42.520> is<00:18:43.240> there<00:18:43.400> was<00:18:43.600> a<00:18:43.760> young<00:18:44.039> girl<00:18:44.520> and,<00:18:45.080> um,<00:18:45.440> she'd<00:18:45.799> had

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a<00:18:46.200> suicide<00:18:46.919> attempt,<00:18:47.919> yes,<00:18:48.120> it<00:18:48.240> was<00:18:48.480> very,<00:18:48.760> very<00:18:49.080> sad,<00:18:50.080> and<00:18:50.559> while<00:18:50.799> in<00:18:51.080> hospital<00:18:51.520> and<00:18:51.720> recovering,<00:18:52.400> she<00:18:52.960> had,<00:18:53.960> um,<00:18:54.280> an

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overwhelming<00:18:55.360> sense<00:18:55.640> of<00:18:55.960> gratitude.<00:18:56.679> She<00:18:56.840> began<00:18:57.120> to<00:18:57.320> look<00:18:57.559> around<00:18:57.960> the<00:18:58.120> ward<00:18:58.480> and<00:18:59.000> look<00:18:59.200> at<00:18:59.360> the<00:18:59.520> other<00:18:59.760> young<00:19:00.200> people<00:19:01.200> and<00:19:01.840> recognize<00:19:02.720> that

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you<00:19:03.600> know,<00:19:03.840> their<00:19:04.159> lives<00:19:04.520> might<00:19:04.760> be<00:19:05.000> much<00:19:05.400> more,<00:19:05.919> you,<00:19:06.280> worse<00:19:06.559> than<00:19:06.840> hers,<00:19:07.320> and,<00:19:08.159> um,<00:19:08.480> and<00:19:08.640> then<00:19:08.960> she<00:19:09.200> had<00:19:09.400> this<00:19:09.600> gratitude,<00:19:10.159> and<00:19:10.280> then<00:19:10.440> all<00:19:10.559> of<00:19:10.679> a<00:19:10.799> sudden<00:19:11.039> she<00:19:11.200> talked<00:19:11.480> about

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expanding<00:19:12.640> and<00:19:13.559> expanding<00:19:14.559> and<00:19:14.960> you<00:19:15.080> know,<00:19:15.400> recognizing<00:19:16.159> the<00:19:16.400> so<00:19:16.640> much<00:19:16.880> more<00:19:17.320> and<00:19:17.520> feeling<00:19:18.360> so<00:19:18.640> much<00:19:19.280> love,<00:19:20.280> and

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what<00:19:21.240> she<00:19:21.520> reported<00:19:22.200> was<00:19:22.760> when<00:19:22.880> she<00:19:23.039> left<00:19:23.400> hospital,<00:19:23.919> she'd<00:19:24.200> actually<00:19:24.480> been<00:19:24.799> on<00:19:25.039> medication<00:19:25.799> for<00:19:26.280> depression<00:19:27.280> for,<00:19:27.640> for<00:19:27.919> quite<00:19:28.120> a<00:19:28.280> long<00:19:28.520> time,<00:19:29.000> she<00:19:29.200> stopped

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it<00:19:30.039> immediately,<00:19:31.039> and<00:19:31.200> she<00:19:31.400> never<00:19:31.799> went<00:19:32.080> back<00:19:32.280> to<00:19:32.520> it.<00:19:33.080> So<00:19:33.280> for<00:19:33.480> me,<00:19:33.760> that's<00:19:33.919> an<00:19:34.159> example<00:19:34.559> of<00:19:34.799> how<00:19:35.039> some<00:19:35.200> of<00:19:35.400> these<00:19:35.720> experiences<00:19:36.559> might<00:19:36.880> also<00:19:37.280> generate<00:19:37.799> some

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kind<00:19:38.528> of<00:19:38.977> self-healing<00:19:39.425> or,<00:19:39.874> or<00:19:40.322> well-being<00:19:40.771> for<00:19:41.219> children,<00:19:41.667> but<00:19:42.116> because<00:19:42.564> we<00:19:43.013> don't<00:19:43.461> research<00:19:43.909> them,<00:19:44.358> because<00:19:44.806> they're<00:19:45.255> seen<00:19:45.703> as<00:19:46.152> woo-woo,<00:19:46.600> um,

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that<00:19:57.039> is<00:19:57.320> collapsing,<00:19:58.919> and<00:19:59.600> part<00:19:59.840> of<00:20:00.039> that<00:20:00.200> reason<00:20:00.520> is<00:20:00.760> because<00:20:01.080> children<00:20:01.480> are<00:20:02.080> constantly<00:20:03.039> diagnosed<00:20:03.760> and<00:20:04.159> referred<00:20:05.159> to

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these<00:20:06.080> systems,<00:20:06.799> not<00:20:07.000> even<00:20:07.240> for<00:20:07.720> experiences<00:20:08.400> such<00:20:08.559> as<00:20:08.720> "I<00:20:08.840> can<00:20:09.000> hear<00:20:09.200> a<00:20:09.400> voice"<00:20:09.720> or<00:20:09.960> "I<00:20:10.080> can<00:20:10.240> see<00:20:10.640> someone"<00:20:11.520> and<00:20:11.679> you<00:20:12.039> can't,<00:20:13.039> for<00:20:13.280> feeling<00:20:13.760> unhappy

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for<00:20:14.919> a<00:20:15.080> feeling<00:20:15.440> of<00:20:15.840> unhappiness<00:20:16.520> or<00:20:16.720> for<00:20:17.360> suffering.<00:20:18.360> So,<00:20:18.960> um,<00:20:19.440> if<00:20:19.520> we<00:20:19.679> go<00:20:19.880> back<00:20:20.039> to<00:20:20.159> your<00:20:20.400> question<00:20:20.760> about<00:20:21.200> why<00:20:21.400> is<00:20:21.559> it<00:20:21.799> import,<00:20:22.320> important<00:20:22.799> to

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research<00:20:23.640> with<00:20:24.520> children,<00:20:25.520> we<00:20:25.679> don't<00:20:26.000> do<00:20:26.360> that,<00:20:27.240> and<00:20:27.400> we<00:20:27.559> need<00:20:27.760> to<00:20:27.919> be<00:20:28.159> with<00:20:28.320> children<00:20:28.919> to<00:20:29.159> learn<00:20:29.880> about<00:20:30.200> these<00:20:31.280> experiences

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um,<00:20:32.480> to<00:20:32.760> inform<00:20:33.360> services<00:20:33.960> that<00:20:34.080> are<00:20:34.280> meant<00:20:34.520> to<00:20:34.760> support<00:20:35.280> children,<00:20:36.280> but<00:20:36.480> also<00:20:36.840> in<00:20:36.960> the<00:20:37.120> wider<00:20:38.159> context,<00:20:39.159> maybe<00:20:39.720> so<00:20:40.200> we<00:20:40.320> can

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learn<00:20:40.760> more<00:20:41.000> about<00:20:41.640> consciousness,<00:20:42.640> because<00:20:42.799> that's<00:20:42.960> a<00:20:43.159> very<00:20:43.480> adult,<00:20:44.039> le,<00:20:44.360> le<00:20:44.799> field,<00:20:45.799> and<00:20:46.240> normally<00:20:46.640> a<00:20:46.799> very<00:20:47.120> scientific<00:20:47.640> or<00:20:47.919> philosophical<00:20:48.720> field

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especially<00:20:49.600> in<00:20:49.720> the<00:20:49.840> neurosciences<00:20:50.760> when<00:20:50.880> it<00:20:51.000> comes<00:20:51.200> to<00:20:51.440> children,<00:20:52.440> and<00:20:52.760> again,<00:20:53.280> children<00:20:53.600> are<00:20:53.720> missing<00:20:54.600> from<00:20:54.840> that<00:20:55.000> area<00:20:55.360> of<00:20:55.559> research.<00:20:56.440> So<00:20:57.240> that's

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why<00:20:58.360> we,<00:20:58.600> we<00:20:58.679> should<00:20:58.880> research<00:20:59.360> with<00:20:59.559> them<00:21:01.159> too.<00:21:02.159> What<00:21:02.280> are<00:21:02.480> the<00:21:02.760> typical<00:21:03.159> research<00:21:03.640> question<00:21:05.840> you

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answering?<00:21:07.640> What<00:21:07.720> would<00:21:07.880> you<00:21:08.000> like<00:21:08.159> to?<00:21:08.559> It's<00:21:08.760> very<00:21:09.000> tricky.<00:21:09.960> So<00:21:10.559> a<00:21:10.679> trick,<00:21:11.000> an<00:21:11.200> example<00:21:11.720> is,<00:21:12.400> um,<00:21:13.400> if<00:21:13.640> I'm<00:21:13.840> researching<00:21:14.360> with<00:21:14.480> a<00:21:14.640> group<00:21:14.840> of

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four<00:21:15.327> and<00:21:15.655> five-year-olds,<00:21:15.982> I<00:21:16.309> mean,<00:21:16.636> we're,<00:21:16.964> we're<00:21:17.291> running<00:21:17.618> a<00:21:17.945> very<00:21:18.273> big<00:21:18.600> national<00:21:18.927> project<00:21:19.255> at<00:21:19.582> the<00:21:19.909> minute,<00:21:20.236> and<00:21:20.564> we're<00:21:20.891> trying<00:21:21.218> to<00:21:21.545> explore<00:21:21.873> these<00:21:22.200> extra-sensory

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experiences<00:21:23.520> across<00:21:23.960> various<00:21:24.400> cultural<00:21:25.200> contexts,<00:21:26.200> because<00:21:26.520> again,<00:21:26.799> we<00:21:26.960> want<00:21:27.120> to<00:21:27.320> look<00:21:27.520> at<00:21:28.039> our<00:21:28.279> c,<00:21:28.559> cultural<00:21:28.960> narratives,<00:21:29.600> and<00:21:30.000> you<00:21:30.120> know,<00:21:30.679> if<00:21:30.799> a

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child<00:21:31.240> reports<00:21:31.640> an<00:21:31.880> experience,<00:21:32.640> how<00:21:32.840> might<00:21:33.080> they<00:21:33.279> be<00:21:33.520> responded<00:21:34.080> to,<00:21:35.000> um,<00:21:35.320> from<00:21:35.440> a<00:21:35.640> cultural<00:21:36.200> perspective?<00:21:36.960> You<00:21:37.080> know,<00:21:37.320> is<00:21:37.440> it<00:21:37.600> our,<00:21:37.960> our<00:21:38.240> Western,<00:21:39.200> our

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modern<00:21:40.000> Western<00:21:40.880> narrative<00:21:41.600> where,<00:21:42.240> yeah,<00:21:42.440> there,<00:21:42.720> that's<00:21:42.960> impossible,<00:21:43.480> or<00:21:43.640> there's<00:21:43.799> something<00:21:44.120> not<00:21:44.360> quite<00:21:44.799> right,<00:21:45.440> or<00:21:45.720> you<00:21:45.840> know,<00:21:46.000> in<00:21:46.159> our<00:21:46.440> country<00:21:46.960> we<00:21:47.159> have<00:21:47.640> many

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different<00:21:48.360> cultures<00:21:49.039> who<00:21:49.760> think<00:21:50.080> about<00:21:50.440> these<00:21:50.799> in<00:21:51.039> very<00:21:51.320> different<00:21:51.720> ways.<00:21:52.159> So<00:21:52.720> you<00:21:52.840> know,<00:21:53.000> as<00:21:53.240> part<00:21:53.440> of<00:21:53.640> that<00:21:53.960> research,<00:21:54.960> so<00:21:55.640> one<00:21:55.799> of<00:21:55.960> the<00:21:56.159> research

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groups,<00:21:57.016> they<00:21:57.391> were<00:21:57.767> four<00:21:58.142> and<00:21:58.518> five-year-olds.<00:21:58.894> Well,<00:21:59.269> you<00:21:59.645> know,<00:22:00.020> how<00:22:00.396> do<00:22:00.772> you<00:22:01.147> go<00:22:01.523> into<00:22:01.899> a<00:22:02.274> group<00:22:02.650> of<00:22:03.025> four<00:22:03.401> and<00:22:03.777> five-year-olds<00:22:04.152> and<00:22:04.528> say,<00:22:04.903> "Okay,<00:22:05.279> have

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you<00:22:05.990> had<00:22:06.540> a<00:22:07.090> weird<00:22:07.640> experience,<00:22:08.190> out-of-body<00:22:08.740> experience?"<00:22:09.290> And<00:22:09.840> they'll<00:22:10.390> go,<00:22:10.940> "Yes,<00:22:11.490> I<00:22:12.040> had<00:22:12.590> a<00:22:13.140> Wei<00:22:13.690> infection."<00:22:14.240> Okay,

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yes,<00:22:15.320> I<00:22:15.480> went<00:22:15.720> on<00:22:16.000> holiday,<00:22:16.960> because<00:22:17.559> these<00:22:17.720> are<00:22:18.039> unusual<00:22:18.840> experiences<00:22:19.640> for<00:22:19.840> very<00:22:20.080> young<00:22:20.320> children,<00:22:20.840> especially<00:22:21.279> children<00:22:21.559> who<00:22:21.720> might<00:22:21.880> not<00:22:22.039> get<00:22:22.200> to<00:22:22.320> go<00:22:22.440> on<00:22:22.720> holiday.<00:22:23.720> So

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then<00:22:24.039> you're<00:22:24.200> like,<00:22:24.679> "Ah,<00:22:25.120> okay,<00:22:25.400> so<00:22:25.880> h,<00:22:26.240> how<00:22:26.400> do<00:22:26.559> we<00:22:26.960> navigate<00:22:27.559> this?"<00:22:28.120> So<00:22:28.799> for<00:22:28.960> example,<00:22:29.279> one<00:22:29.400> of<00:22:29.520> the<00:22:29.600> tools<00:22:30.039> we've<00:22:30.279> made<00:22:30.960> is,<00:22:31.360> um,<00:22:31.919> a

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story<00:22:32.480> book.<00:22:33.400> So<00:22:33.840> I've<00:22:34.000> wrote<00:22:34.320> a<00:22:34.440> little<00:22:34.720> book<00:22:35.120> where,<00:22:35.600> and<00:22:35.760> it's<00:22:35.960> taken<00:22:36.279> from<00:22:36.520> children's<00:22:37.039> actual<00:22:37.520> experiences<00:22:38.320> and<00:22:38.520> put<00:22:38.679> it<00:22:38.799> into<00:22:39.039> a<00:22:39.279> character.<00:22:40.120> So

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with<00:22:40.480> the<00:22:40.640> very<00:22:40.880> young<00:22:41.159> ones,<00:22:41.679> I'll<00:22:41.880> read<00:22:42.200> some<00:22:42.400> of<00:22:42.600> that<00:22:43.080> story,<00:22:44.080> um,<00:22:44.240> and<00:22:44.480> say,<00:22:44.760> "Okay,<00:22:45.200> have<00:22:45.320> you<00:22:45.559> had<00:22:45.799> anything<00:22:46.320> happen<00:22:46.720> like<00:22:47.000> that?"<00:22:47.720> And<00:22:47.960> then<00:22:48.200> they<00:22:48.360> will

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just<00:22:48.880> draw<00:22:49.440> that,<00:22:49.960> or<00:22:50.159> they<00:22:50.320> will<00:22:50.559> talk<00:22:50.919> about<00:22:51.360> that,<00:22:51.720> or<00:22:51.880> we'll<00:22:52.120> have<00:22:52.480> toys,<00:22:53.039> and,<00:22:53.960> um,<00:22:54.919> we'll<00:22:55.240> play<00:22:55.919> that<00:22:56.279> experience<00:22:56.880> out

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and<00:22:57.279> we'll<00:22:57.520> try<00:22:57.760> to<00:22:58.000> capture<00:22:58.559> things<00:22:58.760> in<00:22:58.960> that<00:22:59.159> way,<00:22:59.320> and<00:22:59.480> it's<00:22:59.720> amazing<00:23:00.240> what<00:23:00.400> younger<00:23:00.799> children<00:23:01.720> will<00:23:01.919> start<00:23:02.200> to<00:23:02.400> reveal<00:23:02.880> when<00:23:03.000> you<00:23:03.159> do<00:23:03.480> that.<00:23:04.279> You<00:23:04.400> know,<00:23:04.559> it's<00:23:04.799> very<00:23:05.120> hard

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so<00:23:14.120> we're<00:23:14.240> not<00:23:14.360> going<00:23:14.600> and<00:23:14.840> say,<00:23:15.600> "Have<00:23:15.760> you<00:23:15.960> done<00:23:16.320> this?<00:23:16.600> Have<00:23:16.760> you<00:23:16.960> done<00:23:17.240> this?"<00:23:17.480> Because<00:23:17.640> of<00:23:17.760> course<00:23:17.960> children<00:23:18.240> will<00:23:18.400> say,<00:23:18.720> "Yes,<00:23:18.960> I<00:23:19.159> have,"<00:23:19.679> and<00:23:19.880> especially<00:23:20.279> if<00:23:20.400> they're<00:23:20.559> in

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which<00:23:28.159> can<00:23:28.279> make,<00:23:28.520> make<00:23:28.679> it<00:23:28.880> more<00:23:29.520> difficult<00:23:30.039> actually<00:23:30.400> than<00:23:30.600> researching<00:23:31.279> with<00:23:31.480> adults<00:23:33.440> too.<00:23:34.440> We're<00:23:34.600> always<00:23:34.840> trying<00:23:35.120> to,<00:23:36.080> um,

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what<00:23:45.440> I<00:23:45.520> was<00:23:45.640> saying<00:23:45.960> about<00:23:46.640> qualitative<00:23:47.400> research<00:23:47.880> in<00:23:48.039> its<00:23:48.240> traditional<00:23:48.799> sense<00:23:49.200> was<00:23:49.400> always<00:23:49.640> trying<00:23:49.880> to<00:23:50.120> achieve<00:23:50.600> and,<00:23:51.080> and<00:23:51.240> try<00:23:51.480> to<00:23:51.640> show<00:23:52.000> that<00:23:52.200> this<00:23:52.360> is<00:23:52.640> valid<00:23:53.240> because

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00:24:01.919 --> 00:24:10.240
what<00:24:02.159> people<00:24:02.520> say,<00:24:02.840> and<00:24:03.480> it's<00:24:03.760> just<00:24:04.480> subjective.<00:24:05.480> But<00:24:05.919> what<00:24:06.039> do<00:24:06.159> we<00:24:06.400> mean<00:24:06.640> by<00:24:06.919> subjective<00:24:07.480> and<00:24:09.039> objective?<00:24:10.039> What

00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:19.279
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00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:28.000
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00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:36.360
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00:24:36.360 --> 00:24:44.799
your<00:24:36.640> narratives<00:24:37.440> here<00:24:37.880> and<00:24:38.039> your<00:24:38.279> research<00:24:38.880> agendas<00:24:39.559> and<00:24:39.799> the<00:24:39.960> power<00:24:40.799> relationships.<00:24:41.799> So<00:24:42.080> basically,<00:24:42.799> you,<00:24:42.960> you're<00:24:43.159> discerning,<00:24:43.799> you're<00:24:44.000> being<00:24:44.360> mindful,

00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:53.880
you're<00:24:45.000> being<00:24:45.399> reflexive,<00:24:46.399> and<00:24:46.520> you're<00:24:46.880> looking<00:24:47.880> at<00:24:48.200> that<00:24:49.200> when<00:24:49.360> you're<00:24:49.520> going<00:24:49.799> into<00:24:50.039> the<00:24:50.240> research,<00:24:50.720> and<00:24:50.880> you're<00:24:51.000> trying<00:24:51.200> to<00:24:51.320> come<00:24:51.679> at<00:24:51.840> it<00:24:51.960> from<00:24:52.120> a<00:24:52.200> more<00:24:52.480> neutral<00:24:53.080> space.

00:24:53.880 --> 00:25:02.840
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00:25:02.840 --> 00:25:12.000
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00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:20.520
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00:25:20.520 --> 00:25:28.279
kind<00:25:20.640> of<00:25:20.760> a<00:25:20.919> case<00:25:21.120> for<00:25:21.320> the<00:25:21.880> qualitative,<00:25:22.880> and<00:25:23.080> children<00:25:23.640> push<00:25:23.880> us<00:25:24.039> to<00:25:24.200> do<00:25:24.440> that<00:25:24.679> even<00:25:24.960> more<00:25:25.399> because<00:25:25.520> it's<00:25:25.679> more<00:25:26.200> difficult<00:25:26.440> in<00:25:26.559> a<00:25:26.760> sense,<00:25:27.399> and<00:25:27.520> it<00:25:27.600> brings<00:25:27.919> these<00:25:28.080> issu

00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:36.840
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00:25:44.520 --> 00:25:51.960
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00:25:51.960 --> 00:26:00.279
there's<00:25:52.080> a<00:25:52.279> whole<00:25:52.679> ontological<00:25:53.640> debate<00:25:54.120> of<00:25:54.760> what<00:25:54.919> does<00:25:55.200> real<00:25:55.559> mean.<00:25:56.080> I<00:25:56.159> mean,<00:25:56.919> one<00:25:57.039> of<00:25:57.200> the<00:25:57.320> biggest<00:25:57.720> questions<00:25:58.360> get<00:25:58.559> asked,<00:25:58.880> you<00:25:58.960> know,<00:25:59.120> if<00:25:59.240> I'm,<00:25:59.399> if<00:25:59.480> I'm<00:25:59.600> giving<00:25:59.799> a<00:26:00.000> talk

00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:08.000
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00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:14.279
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00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:22.440
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00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:30.919
material<00:26:23.120> that's<00:26:23.320> used<00:26:23.679> all<00:26:23.840> the<00:26:24.039> time<00:26:24.240> to<00:26:24.399> measure<00:26:25.120> children,<00:26:26.120> um,<00:26:27.080> I<00:26:27.159> think<00:26:27.399> children<00:26:27.799> have<00:26:27.919> a<00:26:28.360> really<00:26:28.559> good<00:26:28.799> sense<00:26:29.279> of,<00:26:29.960> for<00:26:30.120> me,<00:26:30.279> the<00:26:30.440> research

00:26:30.919 --> 00:26:39.600
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00:26:39.600 --> 00:26:47.919
sometimes.<00:26:39.919> So<00:26:40.080> it<00:26:40.240> has<00:26:40.360> a<00:26:40.640> very,<00:26:41.640> uh,<00:26:41.840> subjective<00:26:42.480> reality<00:26:42.919> for<00:26:43.600> children,<00:26:44.919> um,<00:26:45.919> it's<00:26:46.240> really<00:26:46.600> important<00:26:47.159> in<00:26:47.279> terms<00:26:47.520> of<00:26:47.720> these

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extra-sensory<00:26:48.272> experiences<00:26:48.625> that<00:26:48.978> we<00:26:49.331> do<00:26:49.684> research<00:26:50.037> them<00:26:50.390> and,<00:26:50.743> and,<00:26:51.096> and<00:26:51.449> generate<00:26:51.802> a<00:26:52.156> new<00:26:52.509> kind<00:26:52.862> of<00:26:53.215> narrative<00:26:53.568> that,<00:26:53.921> that<00:26:54.274> can<00:26:54.627> in<00:26:54.980> some<00:26:55.333> ways<00:26:55.686> challenge<00:26:56.039> this

00:26:56.399 --> 00:27:05.320
very,<00:26:56.946> again,<00:26:57.492> biomedical<00:26:58.039> model.<00:26:58.586> You<00:26:59.133> know,<00:26:59.679> children,<00:27:00.226> this<00:27:00.773> biomedical<00:27:01.320> model,<00:27:01.866> um,<00:27:02.413> anything<00:27:02.960> to<00:27:03.507> do<00:27:04.053> with<00:27:04.600> children

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especially<00:27:05.760> in<00:27:05.880> the<00:27:06.320> UK,<00:27:07.320> it,<00:27:07.559> it's,<00:27:07.919> it's<00:27:08.039> all<00:27:08.279> these<00:27:08.480> brain-based<00:27:09.520> models.<00:27:10.520> So<00:27:11.080> you<00:27:11.240> know,<00:27:12.080> everything's<00:27:12.600> generated<00:27:13.159> from<00:27:13.360> the

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brain,<00:27:14.000> which<00:27:14.240> means<00:27:14.840> if<00:27:14.960> there's<00:27:15.200> something<00:27:15.600> happening<00:27:16.000> with<00:27:16.120> a<00:27:16.320> child,<00:27:17.320> the,<00:27:17.480> the<00:27:17.640> issue<00:27:17.919> is<00:27:18.120> residing<00:27:18.919> within<00:27:19.240> the<00:27:19.440> biology<00:27:20.000> of<00:27:20.120> the<00:27:20.320> child.<00:27:20.919> You<00:27:21.039> know,<00:27:21.279> it's,<00:27:21.520> it's

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it's<00:27:22.080> in<00:27:22.320> the<00:27:22.520> child,<00:27:22.960> and<00:27:23.480> it<00:27:23.640> doesn't<00:27:24.000> pay<00:27:24.200> any<00:27:24.440> attention<00:27:24.840> to<00:27:25.080> the<00:27:25.279> social,<00:27:25.799> the<00:27:26.440> contextual,<00:27:27.440> you<00:27:27.559> know,<00:27:27.760> but<00:27:27.919> also<00:27:28.200> so<00:27:28.399> what<00:27:28.600> might<00:27:28.799> be<00:27:29.080> beyond<00:27:29.559> that?<00:27:30.240> We

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never<00:27:30.679> really<00:27:30.880> ask<00:27:31.120> these<00:27:31.279> ontological<00:27:32.080> questions<00:27:32.480> in<00:27:32.720> social<00:27:33.159> science<00:27:33.640> either.<00:27:34.559> We<00:27:34.720> do<00:27:34.919> to<00:27:35.080> an<00:27:35.279> extent,<00:27:35.799> but<00:27:36.039> then<00:27:36.720> when<00:27:36.880> it's<00:27:37.080> research<00:27:37.640> that's<00:27:37.919> about<00:27:38.279> social<00:27:38.720> transformation

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which<00:27:39.919> is<00:27:40.240> kind<00:27:40.399> of<00:27:40.840> the<00:27:41.000> business<00:27:41.440> that<00:27:41.600> we're<00:27:42.240> in,<00:27:43.240> we,<00:27:43.480> we,<00:27:43.640> we<00:27:43.799> ask<00:27:44.159> people<00:27:44.440> about<00:27:44.960> themselves,<00:27:45.399> but<00:27:45.519> we<00:27:45.640> don't<00:27:46.120> ask,<00:27:46.679> "What<00:27:46.880> is<00:27:47.120> self?"<00:27:47.519> You<00:27:47.600> know,<00:27:47.760> how

00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:56.200
do<00:27:48.000> you<00:27:48.240> experience<00:27:48.840> that?<00:27:49.039> We<00:27:49.200> just<00:27:49.360> immediately<00:27:50.519> categorize<00:27:51.519> people.<00:27:53.600> So<00:27:54.600> funny<00:27:54.960> thing,<00:27:55.159> I<00:27:55.279> was,<00:27:55.720> I<00:27:55.799> was<00:27:55.960> talking

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to<00:27:56.360> my<00:27:56.559> mother<00:27:57.200> two<00:27:57.440> days<00:27:57.640> ago<00:27:57.880> and<00:27:58.200> was<00:27:58.320> telling<00:27:58.600> her<00:27:58.799> about,<00:27:59.080> "Oh,<00:27:59.200> I'm<00:27:59.279> going<00:27:59.399> to<00:27:59.559> do<00:27:59.760> this<00:27:59.960> interview<00:28:00.840> about<00:28:01.200> this<00:28:01.480> topic,"<00:28:02.120> and<00:28:02.240> she<00:28:02.399> was<00:28:02.559> very<00:28:02.760> interested.<00:28:03.200> And<00:28:03.320> I<00:28:03.480> asked

00:28:03.679 --> 00:28:11.880
her,<00:28:04.027> "Look,<00:28:04.375> how<00:28:04.722> was<00:28:05.070> it<00:28:05.418> when,<00:28:05.766> you<00:28:06.114> know,<00:28:06.462> with<00:28:06.809> your<00:28:07.157> grandmother<00:28:07.505> or<00:28:07.853> grand-grandmother,<00:28:08.201> when,<00:28:08.549> you<00:28:08.896> know,<00:28:09.244> we<00:28:09.592> were<00:28:09.940> living<00:28:10.288> closer<00:28:10.636> to<00:28:10.983> nature<00:28:11.331> at<00:28:11.679> that

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time,<00:28:12.080> you<00:28:12.159> know,<00:28:12.399> and<00:28:13.080> kids<00:28:13.320> were<00:28:13.480> saying,<00:28:13.919> 'Yeah,<00:28:14.159> I<00:28:14.240> see<00:28:14.440> a<00:28:14.600> fairy,'<00:28:15.200> or<00:28:15.480> some,<00:28:16.480> um,<00:28:16.880> you<00:28:17.000> know,<00:28:17.360> spirit<00:28:17.760> of<00:28:17.960> the<00:28:18.120> lake<00:28:18.559> or<00:28:19.279> spirit<00:28:19.679> of<00:28:19.880> the

00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:28.399
forest?"<00:28:21.240> And<00:28:21.519> my<00:28:21.679> mom<00:28:21.880> said,<00:28:22.640> "Yeah,<00:28:22.880> so<00:28:23.080> it<00:28:23.200> was<00:28:23.480> like<00:28:23.760> this,<00:28:24.440> so<00:28:24.640> you<00:28:24.919> see,<00:28:25.919> so<00:28:26.200> people<00:28:26.480> just<00:28:26.760> accepted<00:28:27.559> and<00:28:27.720> said,<00:28:27.960> 'Yeah.'"<00:28:28.240> But

00:28:28.399 --> 00:28:37.399
these<00:28:28.724> days,<00:28:29.048> if<00:28:29.373> a<00:28:29.698> child<00:28:30.022> comes<00:28:30.347> back<00:28:30.672> and<00:28:30.996> say,<00:28:31.321> talks<00:28:31.646> to<00:28:31.970> a<00:28:32.295> fairy<00:28:32.619> every<00:28:32.944> day,<00:28:33.269> you<00:28:33.593> know,<00:28:33.918> the<00:28:34.243> first<00:28:34.567> question<00:28:34.892> is,<00:28:35.217> "Is<00:28:35.541> there<00:28:35.866> schizophrenia<00:28:36.191> or<00:28:36.515> bipolar<00:28:36.840> disorder

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or<00:28:37.720> some<00:28:37.919> other<00:28:38.159> thing?"<00:28:39.080> And<00:28:39.200> then<00:28:39.320> my<00:28:39.440> mom<00:28:39.640> said,<00:28:39.919> "Yeah,<00:28:40.039> but<00:28:40.159> at<00:28:40.279> that<00:28:40.440> time<00:28:40.600> we<00:28:40.679> didn't<00:28:40.919> have<00:28:41.120> so<00:28:41.279> many<00:28:41.519> psychologist,<00:28:43.039> psychiatrist."<00:28:44.039> Yeah,<00:28:44.399> I<00:28:44.480> mean,<00:28:44.760> this<00:28:44.919> is,<00:28:45.200> this<00:28:45.320> is<00:28:45.480> the

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kind<00:28:46.025> of<00:28:46.410> the<00:28:46.794> social-cultural,<00:28:47.179> cultural<00:28:47.564> conditioning<00:28:47.949> of<00:28:48.333> adults,<00:28:48.718> you<00:28:49.103> know,<00:28:49.488> who<00:28:49.872> are<00:28:50.257> responding<00:28:50.642> to<00:28:51.027> these<00:28:51.411> experiences.<00:28:51.796> And<00:28:52.181> you<00:28:52.566> know,<00:28:52.950> it's<00:28:53.335> really<00:28:53.720> challenging

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because<00:28:54.440> as<00:28:54.640> adults,<00:28:55.039> we<00:28:55.159> are,<00:28:55.360> we<00:28:55.480> are<00:28:55.799> socially<00:28:56.480> conditioned.<00:28:56.960> It's<00:28:57.640> everything<00:28:58.200> we<00:28:58.320> do<00:28:58.440> is<00:28:58.640> influenced<00:28:59.320> by<00:28:59.720> language,<00:29:00.360> by<00:29:01.320> institutions,<00:29:02.320> um,

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and<00:29:03.279> you<00:29:03.399> know,<00:29:03.640> if<00:29:03.840> even<00:29:04.000> if<00:29:04.159> we<00:29:04.440> question<00:29:04.919> that,<00:29:05.159> we're<00:29:05.399> seen<00:29:05.679> as<00:29:05.840> unusual,<00:29:06.960> or,<00:29:07.960> um,<00:29:08.200> and<00:29:08.559> the<00:29:08.679> other<00:29:08.880> thing<00:29:09.039> is<00:29:09.159> we<00:29:09.279> always<00:29:09.519> seek<00:29:09.880> the<00:29:10.159> expert<00:29:10.760> outside<00:29:11.240> of

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ourselves,<00:29:12.279> and<00:29:12.480> especially<00:29:12.840> where<00:29:13.000> our<00:29:13.200> children<00:29:13.480> are<00:29:13.679> concerned.<00:29:14.240> And<00:29:14.679> then<00:29:14.880> the<00:29:14.960> only<00:29:15.360> experts<00:29:15.880> there<00:29:16.120> are<00:29:16.360> kind<00:29:16.480> of<00:29:16.600> the<00:29:16.720> medical<00:29:17.519> experts.<00:29:18.519> So<00:29:19.039> you<00:29:19.159> know,<00:29:19.279> it's<00:29:19.519> very

00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:28.159
very,<00:29:20.120> very<00:29:20.320> challenging.<00:29:20.760> It's<00:29:20.960> really<00:29:21.240> challenging<00:29:21.720> for<00:29:22.080> a<00:29:22.320> parent,<00:29:23.240> you<00:29:23.360> know,<00:29:23.519> if<00:29:23.640> a<00:29:23.840> child<00:29:24.600> says,<00:29:25.519> you<00:29:25.600> know,<00:29:25.799> even<00:29:26.120> me,<00:29:26.600> sometimes,<00:29:26.960> my,<00:29:27.159> my<00:29:27.360> children<00:29:27.640> have<00:29:27.799> had

00:29:28.159 --> 00:29:36.519
these<00:29:28.360> experiences,<00:29:29.000> and<00:29:29.159> I'll<00:29:29.360> catch<00:29:29.679> myself<00:29:30.240> sometimes,<00:29:30.440> I'll<00:29:30.640> say,<00:29:30.880> "Oh,<00:29:31.080> Mom,<00:29:31.399> this<00:29:31.600> happened,<00:29:32.039> this<00:29:32.200> happened,"<00:29:32.519> and<00:29:32.640> I'm<00:29:33.320> like,<00:29:35.320> secretly,<00:29:36.320> but

00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:45.559
of<00:29:36.679> course,<00:29:37.120> I,<00:29:37.279> I<00:29:37.360> don't<00:29:37.600> do<00:29:37.880> that<00:29:38.320> out<00:29:38.600> there.<00:29:38.799> It's<00:29:39.039> kind<00:29:39.200> of,<00:29:39.519> "Okay,<00:29:40.039> let's<00:29:40.360> listen,<00:29:40.960> tell,<00:29:41.279> you<00:29:41.399> know,<00:29:41.679> tell<00:29:41.880> me<00:29:42.159> about<00:29:42.600> that,<00:29:43.320> what<00:29:43.480> does<00:29:43.720> that<00:29:43.880> mean<00:29:44.159> to<00:29:44.399> you?"<00:29:45.240> That's

00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:54.360
quite<00:29:46.039> okay.<00:29:47.039> Lots<00:29:47.360> and<00:29:47.519> lots<00:29:47.760> and<00:29:47.919> lots<00:29:48.120> of<00:29:48.320> children<00:29:48.960> and<00:29:49.159> adults<00:29:49.720> have<00:29:49.960> these<00:29:50.760> experiences,<00:29:51.760> it's<00:29:52.120> fine,<00:29:53.120> you<00:29:53.240> know,<00:29:53.559> and

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but<00:29:54.559> you<00:29:54.679> know,<00:29:55.600> the<00:29:55.760> knee-jerk,<00:29:56.360> especially<00:29:56.799> with<00:29:57.000> voice<00:29:57.399> hearing,<00:29:58.679> um,<00:29:59.200> we're<00:29:59.440> just<00:29:59.559> so<00:30:00.159> conditioned,<00:30:00.519> and,<00:30:00.679> and<00:30:00.880> we<00:30:01.080> have<00:30:01.279> fear<00:30:01.880> around<00:30:02.240> it,<00:30:02.880> and

00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:11.360
instead<00:30:03.374> of<00:30:03.709> kind<00:30:04.044> of<00:30:04.379> coming<00:30:04.714> into<00:30:05.049> our<00:30:05.384> own<00:30:05.719> knowledge<00:30:06.054> that<00:30:06.389> we,<00:30:06.724> we've<00:30:07.059> lost<00:30:07.395> touch<00:30:07.730> with,<00:30:08.065> um,<00:30:08.400> we're<00:30:08.735> always<00:30:09.070> seeking<00:30:09.405> the<00:30:09.740> outside<00:30:10.075> expert,<00:30:10.410> and<00:30:10.745> it's<00:30:11.080> always

00:30:11.360 --> 00:30:20.480
that<00:30:11.519> biomedical<00:30:12.120> model.<00:30:12.360> So<00:30:12.519> it's<00:30:12.600> a<00:30:13.080> circle,<00:30:14.080> it's<00:30:14.240> just<00:30:14.399> a<00:30:14.799> circle,<00:30:15.799> um.<00:30:16.120> So<00:30:16.760> for<00:30:16.960> me,<00:30:17.240> this<00:30:17.360> is<00:30:17.640> partly<00:30:18.120> why<00:30:18.320> this<00:30:18.519> research<00:30:19.000> is<00:30:19.480> important,

00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:28.840
but<00:30:20.640> it's<00:30:20.880> also<00:30:21.240> challenging<00:30:22.039> social<00:30:22.519> research<00:30:22.960> and<00:30:23.200> social<00:30:23.600> science<00:30:23.919> a<00:30:24.080> little<00:30:24.320> bit<00:30:24.519> with<00:30:24.679> that<00:30:24.880> "Who<00:30:25.039> am<00:30:25.279> I?"<00:30:25.799> question,<00:30:26.799> because<00:30:27.039> the<00:30:27.159> research<00:30:27.559> isn't<00:30:27.799> just,<00:30:28.080> just<00:30:28.440> about

00:30:28.840 --> 00:30:38.360
these<00:30:29.080> kinds<00:30:29.320> of<00:30:29.600> experiences,<00:30:30.440> it's<00:30:30.720> also<00:30:31.120> about<00:30:32.000> how<00:30:32.159> do<00:30:32.360> these<00:30:32.679> experiences<00:30:33.320> link<00:30:33.679> to,<00:30:34.039> to<00:30:34.279> self,<00:30:34.840> to,<00:30:35.440> to<00:30:35.640> how<00:30:35.840> we<00:30:36.159> experience<00:30:36.720> ourself<00:30:37.600> and

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what's<00:30:38.640> that<00:30:38.880> relationality<00:30:39.760> between<00:30:40.159> these<00:30:40.440> experiences,<00:30:41.279> itself,<00:30:42.240> and,<00:30:42.600> and<00:30:43.440> reality?<00:30:44.440> Because<00:30:44.760> again,<00:30:45.039> in,<00:30:45.240> in<00:30:45.440> social<00:30:45.880> science<00:30:46.240> and<00:30:46.360> in

00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:54.919
social<00:30:47.000> research,<00:30:47.720> everything<00:30:48.120> is<00:30:48.399> socially<00:30:49.279> constructed,<00:30:50.279> so<00:30:50.640> there<00:30:50.760> is<00:30:50.960> nothing<00:30:51.320> outside<00:30:51.799> the<00:30:52.039> social<00:30:53.000> world,<00:30:54.000> um,<00:30:54.720> and

00:30:54.919 --> 00:31:03.639
again,<00:30:55.200> that's<00:30:55.440> really<00:30:56.559> problematic,<00:30:57.559> because<00:30:58.080> in<00:30:58.240> the<00:30:58.399> social<00:30:58.799> world,<00:30:59.200> we<00:30:59.399> have<00:30:59.639> social<00:31:00.320> identities,<00:31:01.320> we're<00:31:01.559> in<00:31:01.840> competition<00:31:02.559> with<00:31:02.760> each<00:31:02.960> other,

00:31:03.639 --> 00:31:12.639
we're<00:31:03.960> individ,<00:31:04.799> individuals,<00:31:05.799> and<00:31:06.440> the<00:31:06.600> more<00:31:06.960> that<00:31:07.120> we<00:31:07.279> are,<00:31:07.960> you<00:31:08.120> know,<00:31:08.720> told<00:31:09.240> that<00:31:09.480> we<00:31:09.600> are<00:31:10.240> an<00:31:10.440> individual,<00:31:11.399> a<00:31:11.639> woman,

00:31:12.639 --> 00:31:21.279
a<00:31:12.720> homeless<00:31:13.360> person,<00:31:13.760> whatever<00:31:14.240> category<00:31:14.720> we're<00:31:15.880> given,<00:31:16.880> we<00:31:17.120> take<00:31:17.519> that,<00:31:17.760> and,<00:31:18.000> and<00:31:18.240> we,<00:31:18.480> we<00:31:18.639> shape<00:31:19.039> our<00:31:19.399> sense<00:31:19.639> of<00:31:19.919> self.<00:31:20.320> Again,<00:31:20.559> it's<00:31:20.799> language,

00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:30.039
it's<00:31:21.480> discourse,<00:31:22.039> it<00:31:22.159> shapes<00:31:22.559> a<00:31:22.799> sense<00:31:23.120> of,<00:31:23.600> of<00:31:23.840> who<00:31:24.039> we<00:31:24.440> are,<00:31:25.440> um,<00:31:25.880> self-programming<00:31:26.799> even,<00:31:27.200> right,<00:31:27.960> in<00:31:28.080> a<00:31:28.279> way<00:31:28.519> as<00:31:28.679> well.<00:31:29.159> Yeah,<00:31:29.600> I

00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:38.880
this,<00:31:30.480> this<00:31:30.760> father,<00:31:31.480> mother,<00:31:32.240> whatever,<00:31:33.399> teacher,<00:31:34.399> it's<00:31:34.519> a<00:31:34.639> bit<00:31:34.840> like<00:31:35.039> Michel<00:31:35.440> Foucault<00:31:36.039> talked<00:31:36.320> about<00:31:36.679> technologies<00:31:37.279> of<00:31:37.519> discourse<00:31:38.440> across

00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:47.279
history,<00:31:39.200> and<00:31:39.399> how,<00:31:39.880> you<00:31:40.000> know,<00:31:40.320> powerful<00:31:40.840> in<00:31:41.120> institutions<00:31:41.880> with<00:31:42.120> these<00:31:42.360> languages<00:31:42.919> and<00:31:43.120> these<00:31:43.760> narratives,<00:31:44.760> and<00:31:44.960> you<00:31:45.440> know,<00:31:46.440> we,<00:31:46.679> we<00:31:46.919> take

00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:55.600
that<00:31:47.480> in<00:31:47.679> some<00:31:48.000> sense,<00:31:48.320> but<00:31:48.480> it's,<00:31:48.760> it's<00:31:48.960> this<00:31:49.240> dialectical<00:31:50.080> movement,<00:31:50.799> because<00:31:51.760> as,<00:31:52.080> as<00:31:52.200> we're<00:31:52.559> believing<00:31:53.000> ourselves<00:31:53.480> to<00:31:53.639> be<00:31:53.960> that,<00:31:54.200> we're<00:31:54.440> also<00:31:54.760> shaping<00:31:55.399> that

00:31:55.600 --> 00:32:03.760
bigger<00:31:56.200> narrative<00:31:56.760> as<00:31:56.880> well,<00:31:57.039> and<00:31:57.159> it's<00:31:57.320> always<00:31:57.559> this<00:31:58.000> movement,<00:31:58.919> and<00:31:59.080> it's<00:31:59.320> very<00:31:59.880> difficult<00:32:00.039> to<00:32:00.200> get<00:32:00.399> out<00:32:00.639> of.<00:32:00.919> And<00:32:01.039> I<00:32:01.159> think<00:32:01.360> that's<00:32:01.639> why<00:32:02.360> media<00:32:03.360> have,<00:32:03.600> have

00:32:03.760 --> 00:32:13.279
so<00:32:03.919> much<00:32:04.200> power<00:32:04.639> and<00:32:04.880> influence,<00:32:05.440> and<00:32:05.600> of<00:32:05.760> course<00:32:06.600> they're<00:32:06.840> all<00:32:07.080> about<00:32:07.360> the<00:32:07.519> biomed<00:32:08.279> model,<00:32:08.639> and<00:32:08.799> they're<00:32:09.000> all<00:32:09.320> about,<00:32:10.320> uh,<00:32:10.440> the<00:32:10.639> material<00:32:11.399> and,<00:32:12.399> and

00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:21.480
yeah,<00:32:13.760> yeah.<00:32:14.080> So<00:32:14.840> again,<00:32:15.840> you<00:32:16.159> know,<00:32:17.159> we<00:32:17.279> don't,<00:32:17.639> we<00:32:17.760> don't<00:32:18.000> look<00:32:18.200> at<00:32:18.399> children<00:32:19.120> when<00:32:19.279> we<00:32:19.440> think<00:32:19.639> about<00:32:20.200> consciousness<00:32:21.200> and<00:32:21.360> when

00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:29.639
we<00:32:21.639> think,<00:32:21.880> when<00:32:22.039> we<00:32:22.159> ask<00:32:22.399> these<00:32:22.639> huge<00:32:23.000> metaphysical<00:32:23.880> questions,<00:32:24.880> and<00:32:25.000> we<00:32:25.120> all<00:32:25.360> forget<00:32:25.679> that<00:32:25.840> we<00:32:26.000> were<00:32:26.200> once<00:32:26.600> children,<00:32:27.519> and<00:32:27.679> that<00:32:27.960> we<00:32:28.080> may<00:32:28.240> have<00:32:28.399> been<00:32:28.679> experiencing<00:32:29.480> this

00:32:29.639 --> 00:32:39.519
in<00:32:29.760> a<00:32:30.080> very,<00:32:30.519> very<00:32:30.840> different<00:32:31.279> way,<00:32:32.159> but<00:32:32.360> we've<00:32:32.600> had<00:32:32.720> it<00:32:33.039> programmed<00:32:33.600> out<00:32:33.799> of<00:32:34.200> us.<00:32:35.200> So<00:32:35.440> it's<00:32:35.880> reminding<00:32:36.360> the<00:32:36.480> adults<00:32:36.919> too,<00:32:37.240> to<00:32:37.399> some<00:32:38.519> extent.

00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:48.279
In<00:32:39.999> your<00:32:40.479> book,<00:32:40.959> you<00:32:41.439> laid<00:32:41.919> very<00:32:42.399> nicely<00:32:42.879> various<00:32:43.359> extra-sensory<00:32:43.839> or<00:32:44.319> unexplained,<00:32:44.799> you<00:32:45.279> call<00:32:45.759> them<00:32:46.239> unexplained<00:32:46.719> experiences,<00:32:47.199> right?<00:32:47.679> But

00:32:48.279 --> 00:32:56.799
in<00:32:48.440> your<00:32:49.559> research,<00:32:50.559> what<00:32:50.679> is<00:32:50.840> the<00:32:51.000> most<00:32:51.279> common<00:32:51.519> one<00:32:51.720> in<00:32:51.919> children<00:32:52.320> that<00:32:52.440> you<00:32:52.600> came<00:32:52.880> across?<00:32:53.880> Yeah,<00:32:54.279> is<00:32:54.360> it<00:32:54.519> different<00:32:54.799> from<00:32:55.039> adults?<00:32:55.519> That<00:32:55.639> the<00:32:55.760> other<00:32:56.000> thing,<00:32:56.480> yeah.

00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:05.320
Well,<00:32:57.120> uh,<00:32:57.519> not,<00:32:58.080> um,<00:32:58.679> children<00:32:59.159> have<00:32:59.480> very<00:33:00.000> similar<00:33:01.279> experiences,<00:33:02.279> um,<00:33:02.399> when<00:33:02.519> you<00:33:02.600> look<00:33:02.720> at<00:33:02.840> the<00:33:02.919> research<00:33:03.240> in<00:33:03.440> adult<00:33:03.960> populations,<00:33:04.960> children

00:33:05.320 --> 00:33:13.799
have<00:33:05.559> very,<00:33:05.880> very<00:33:06.120> similar<00:33:07.200> experiences,<00:33:08.200> um,<00:33:08.679> one<00:33:08.840> of<00:33:08.960> the<00:33:09.159> differences<00:33:09.880> is<00:33:10.000> with<00:33:10.200> near-death<00:33:10.919> experiences<00:33:11.880> that<00:33:12.000> we're<00:33:12.200> coming<00:33:12.519> across.<00:33:12.919> So<00:33:13.559> the

00:33:13.799 --> 00:33:22.799
children<00:33:14.080> in<00:33:14.240> our<00:33:14.519> study<00:33:15.240> who<00:33:15.519> report<00:33:16.159> near-death<00:33:17.120> experiences,<00:33:18.120> they<00:33:18.320> don't<00:33:18.720> describe<00:33:19.480> lots<00:33:19.760> of<00:33:20.120> kind<00:33:20.399> of<00:33:21.399> exciting<00:33:22.279> content,

00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:31.080
let's<00:33:23.120> just<00:33:23.320> say.<00:33:24.120> So<00:33:24.440> where<00:33:24.679> adults<00:33:25.080> will<00:33:25.279> meet<00:33:25.760> lots<00:33:26.039> of<00:33:26.360> loved<00:33:26.679> ones<00:33:27.200> and<00:33:27.519> may<00:33:27.919> go<00:33:28.240> here<00:33:28.440> and<00:33:28.600> do<00:33:28.799> a<00:33:28.919> bit<00:33:29.080> of<00:33:29.279> this<00:33:29.480> and<00:33:29.639> do<00:33:29.760> a<00:33:29.919> bit<00:33:30.039> of<00:33:30.320> that,<00:33:30.960> the

00:33:31.080 --> 00:33:39.880
children<00:33:31.519> who<00:33:31.720> we<00:33:31.840> were<00:33:32.080> speaking<00:33:32.760> to,<00:33:33.760> they<00:33:34.080> described<00:33:34.559> a<00:33:34.799> darkness.<00:33:35.360> It<00:33:35.480> was<00:33:35.600> always<00:33:36.000> this<00:33:36.399> loving,<00:33:36.960> loving<00:33:37.519> darkness.<00:33:38.480> They'll<00:33:38.720> move<00:33:39.039> through<00:33:39.440> tunnels

00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:48.600
and<00:33:40.000> they<00:33:40.120> don't<00:33:40.399> call<00:33:40.600> them<00:33:40.799> tunnels,<00:33:41.279> they<00:33:41.399> say<00:33:41.799> spirals,<00:33:42.519> which<00:33:42.639> is<00:33:42.799> really<00:33:43.120> interesting.<00:33:43.679> They<00:33:43.840> move<00:33:44.120> through<00:33:44.559> spirals,<00:33:45.559> they<00:33:45.720> see<00:33:45.960> a<00:33:46.159> light<00:33:46.519> at<00:33:46.679> the<00:33:46.840> end,<00:33:47.679> but<00:33:48.360> it's

00:33:48.600 --> 00:33:56.000
this<00:33:48.760> loving<00:33:49.240> darkness,<00:33:49.840> this<00:33:50.000> sense<00:33:50.279> of<00:33:50.480> going<00:33:50.799> home,<00:33:51.159> and,<00:33:51.360> and<00:33:51.480> this<00:33:51.639> feeling<00:33:51.960> of<00:33:52.120> love.<00:33:52.559> So<00:33:52.720> there<00:33:52.840> are<00:33:53.080> similar<00:33:53.559> features,<00:33:54.240> but<00:33:54.399> there's<00:33:54.600> also<00:33:54.919> for<00:33:55.120> me<00:33:55.360> this<00:33:55.600> difference

00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:04.200
of<00:33:56.449> this<00:33:56.898> dark<00:33:57.347> womb-likeness,<00:33:57.796> which,<00:33:58.244> which<00:33:58.693> I'm<00:33:59.142> really<00:33:59.591> curious<00:34:00.040> about,<00:34:00.489> and<00:34:00.938> I<00:34:01.387> find<00:34:01.836> really,<00:34:02.284> really<00:34:02.733> interesting,<00:34:03.182> um,<00:34:03.631> it's<00:34:04.080> your

00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:11.119
own<00:34:04.440> experience<00:34:04.919> actually,<00:34:05.279> right?<00:34:05.559> This<00:34:05.799> love<00:34:05.960> and<00:34:06.120> darkness.<00:34:06.639> Yeah,<00:34:06.880> absolutely,<00:34:07.760> yeah,<00:34:08.159> yeah.<00:34:08.280> It's<00:34:08.440> really<00:34:08.679> interesting<00:34:09.079> because<00:34:09.359> again,<00:34:09.520> if<00:34:09.599> we<00:34:09.760> think<00:34:09.960> about<00:34:10.359> social

00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:18.879
conditioning,<00:34:12.119> and<00:34:12.280> I'm<00:34:12.399> not<00:34:12.599> suggesting<00:34:13.159> that,<00:34:13.359> you<00:34:13.480> know,<00:34:13.599> when<00:34:13.800> adults<00:34:14.119> have<00:34:14.240> an<00:34:14.359> NDE<00:34:14.839> experience,<00:34:15.399> that<00:34:15.560> it's<00:34:16.159> completely<00:34:16.760> influenced,<00:34:17.560> you<00:34:17.720> know,<00:34:18.079> by<00:34:18.599> everything.

00:34:18.879 --> 00:34:27.320
We<00:34:19.040> do<00:34:19.280> in<00:34:19.480> in<00:34:19.679> in<00:34:19.839> social<00:34:20.359> life.<00:34:20.639> I'm<00:34:20.760> not<00:34:20.960> suggesting<00:34:21.520> that,<00:34:21.919> but<00:34:22.919> it<00:34:23.040> is<00:34:23.280> interesting<00:34:24.040> how,<00:34:24.440> you<00:34:24.560> know,<00:34:24.919> when<00:34:25.200> adults<00:34:25.879> have,<00:34:26.599> you<00:34:26.720> know,<00:34:26.879> near-death

00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:36.000
experiences,<00:34:27.670> there<00:34:28.019> is<00:34:28.369> a<00:34:28.718> lot<00:34:29.068> of<00:34:29.417> content<00:34:29.767> that<00:34:30.116> resonates<00:34:30.466> with<00:34:30.815> the<00:34:31.165> with<00:34:31.514> their<00:34:31.864> social<00:34:32.213> character<00:34:32.563> or<00:34:32.912> with<00:34:33.262> what<00:34:33.611> they've<00:34:33.961> been<00:34:34.310> doing<00:34:34.660> in<00:34:35.009> life,<00:34:35.359> um.

00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:44.000
But<00:34:36.159> that's<00:34:36.320> why<00:34:36.440> it's<00:34:36.599> so<00:34:36.800> powerful<00:34:37.240> with<00:34:37.440> children.<00:34:37.960> So,<00:34:38.639> you<00:34:38.760> know,<00:34:39.280> six-year-old<00:34:40.079> children<00:34:40.599> haven't<00:34:40.879> read<00:34:41.240> literature<00:34:41.760> on<00:34:41.960> near-death<00:34:42.480> experiences<00:34:43.119> and<00:34:43.320> no<00:34:43.800> the

00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:51.679
adults<00:34:44.399> have<00:34:44.599> reported<00:34:45.079> moving<00:34:45.399> through<00:34:45.599> a<00:34:45.760> tunnel<00:34:46.440> and<00:34:46.560> seeing<00:34:46.839> a<00:34:47.000> bright<00:34:47.320> light<00:34:47.599> at<00:34:47.760> the<00:34:47.879> end,<00:34:48.440> but<00:34:48.599> they're<00:34:48.879> reporting<00:34:49.599> that.<00:34:50.280> So<00:34:50.480> where<00:34:50.599> is<00:34:50.800> that<00:34:50.960> knowledge<00:34:51.359> come

00:34:51.679 --> 00:35:00.640
from?<00:34:52.119> Well,<00:34:52.320> it<00:34:52.440> must<00:34:52.599> be<00:34:52.760> from<00:34:54.079> experience.<00:34:55.079> So,<00:34:55.560> you<00:34:55.639> know,<00:34:55.800> for<00:34:56.000> me,<00:34:56.560> the<00:34:56.679> NDEs<00:34:57.280> are<00:34:58.079> the<00:34:58.240> most<00:34:58.640> exciting,<00:34:59.640> um,<00:35:00.440> but

00:35:00.640 --> 00:35:09.760
there's<00:35:00.880> there's<00:35:01.119> very<00:35:01.359> subtle<00:35:01.800> ones<00:35:02.160> too.<00:35:02.480> So,<00:35:03.440> um,<00:35:04.240> premonitions.<00:35:05.240> Children<00:35:05.920> have<00:35:06.119> lots<00:35:06.359> and<00:35:06.520> lots<00:35:06.720> of<00:35:06.880> premonitions<00:35:07.800> and<00:35:07.960> also<00:35:08.760> telepathy

00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:18.440
moments,<00:35:10.760> um,<00:35:11.040> and<00:35:11.320> telepathy<00:35:11.960> with<00:35:12.880> knowing<00:35:13.480> what<00:35:13.680> others<00:35:14.480> with<00:35:14.720> parents,<00:35:15.240> absolutely<00:35:15.920> with<00:35:16.079> loved<00:35:16.320> ones,<00:35:16.920> mother<00:35:17.280> child,<00:35:18.280> but

00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:26.359
also<00:35:18.640> with<00:35:18.800> their<00:35:19.000> close<00:35:19.280> friends.<00:35:19.680> So<00:35:19.800> there's<00:35:20.040> definitely<00:35:20.400> a<00:35:20.599> social<00:35:21.599> grouping,<00:35:22.599> but<00:35:22.760> when<00:35:22.920> they<00:35:23.079> have<00:35:23.400> those<00:35:23.720> kinds<00:35:23.960> of<00:35:24.200> experiences,<00:35:24.880> they'll<00:35:25.119> also<00:35:25.440> describe<00:35:25.960> something

00:35:26.359 --> 00:35:34.920
embodied.<00:35:27.280> So,<00:35:28.000> um,<00:35:28.280> yeah,<00:35:28.520> I<00:35:28.800> I<00:35:28.880> can<00:35:29.000> feel<00:35:29.240> my<00:35:29.359> friend's<00:35:29.839> headache<00:35:30.240> in<00:35:30.440> my<00:35:30.800> head,<00:35:31.800> which<00:35:32.160> which<00:35:32.320> isn't<00:35:33.320> it's<00:35:33.480> like<00:35:33.680> it's<00:35:33.920> very<00:35:34.160> very<00:35:34.400> interesting.

00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:43.400
But<00:35:35.079> for<00:35:35.680> me,<00:35:36.680> um,<00:35:37.160> we<00:35:37.320> can<00:35:37.520> then<00:35:37.680> ask<00:35:37.960> questions,<00:35:38.599> well,<00:35:38.839> who<00:35:39.040> are<00:35:39.240> you<00:35:39.480> in<00:35:39.680> that<00:35:39.920> moment<00:35:40.480> then?<00:35:41.119> You<00:35:41.200> know,<00:35:41.359> are<00:35:41.440> you<00:35:41.560> an<00:35:41.760> individual<00:35:42.400> person<00:35:42.760> if<00:35:42.880> you're<00:35:43.200> having

00:35:43.400 --> 00:35:51.720
your<00:35:43.680> friend's<00:35:44.280> headache?<00:35:45.280> And<00:35:45.400> they'll<00:35:45.599> say,<00:35:45.880> well,<00:35:46.200> no,<00:35:46.599> I'm<00:35:46.800> me<00:35:47.200> and<00:35:47.400> I'm<00:35:48.000> her<00:35:48.599> all<00:35:48.839> at<00:35:49.000> the<00:35:49.160> same<00:35:49.880> time.<00:35:50.880> So<00:35:51.079> then<00:35:51.240> we're<00:35:51.400> getting

00:35:51.720 --> 00:35:59.920
another<00:35:52.079> expression<00:35:52.560> of<00:35:52.839> self,<00:35:53.680> which<00:35:53.880> is<00:35:54.560> a<00:35:54.720> different<00:35:55.079> layer<00:35:55.520> of<00:35:56.040> of<00:35:56.319> of<00:35:56.880> self,<00:35:57.240> which<00:35:57.359> is<00:35:57.680> not<00:35:57.800> an<00:35:57.960> individual<00:35:58.599> self.<00:35:59.079> It's<00:35:59.599> we<00:35:59.760> call

00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:07.880
it<00:36:00.040> a<00:36:00.200> transpersonal<00:36:01.200> self.<00:36:02.079> That's<00:36:02.280> how<00:36:02.480> we're<00:36:02.680> kind,<00:36:02.960> well,<00:36:03.160> that's<00:36:03.319> how<00:36:03.440> we're<00:36:03.680> thinking<00:36:04.200> about<00:36:04.520> this<00:36:04.680> at<00:36:04.800> the<00:36:04.880> minute,<00:36:05.160> and<00:36:05.280> it's<00:36:05.400> all<00:36:05.680> very<00:36:05.920> embryonic<00:36:06.680> still,<00:36:07.160> but<00:36:07.720> that's

00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:16.359
how<00:36:08.040> we're<00:36:08.200> thinking<00:36:08.480> about<00:36:10.520> that.<00:36:11.520> But<00:36:12.079> what<00:36:12.240> was<00:36:12.440> your<00:36:13.240> biggest<00:36:13.760> aha<00:36:14.240> moment?<00:36:14.880> What<00:36:15.119> like<00:36:15.400> wow<00:36:16.000> from

00:36:16.359 --> 00:36:24.240
you<00:36:16.480> know<00:36:16.599> in<00:36:16.760> your<00:36:17.000> past,<00:36:17.240> because<00:36:17.520> you<00:36:17.720> you<00:36:17.920> had<00:36:18.040> your<00:36:18.160> own<00:36:18.400> experiences,<00:36:19.040> you<00:36:19.359> you've<00:36:19.520> seen<00:36:19.720> a<00:36:19.839> lot<00:36:20.000> of<00:36:20.319> kids<00:36:20.599> and<00:36:20.800> lots<00:36:21.000> of<00:36:21.160> research,<00:36:21.920> what<00:36:22.440> really<00:36:22.800> surprised<00:36:23.319> you<00:36:23.480> or

00:36:24.240 --> 00:36:33.319
took<00:36:24.520> you<00:36:24.680> off<00:36:24.880> guard?<00:36:25.359> You're<00:36:25.640> so<00:36:26.520> taken<00:36:26.839> away.<00:36:27.119> I've<00:36:27.240> been<00:36:27.359> taken<00:36:27.760> off<00:36:28.000> guard,<00:36:28.480> yeah.<00:36:28.720> I<00:36:28.920> was,<00:36:29.240> um,<00:36:29.520> cuz<00:36:30.000> you<00:36:30.200> know<00:36:31.200> many<00:36:31.480> of<00:36:31.760> these<00:36:32.400> experiences

00:36:33.319 --> 00:36:41.680
can<00:36:33.480> be<00:36:33.720> really<00:36:33.960> subtle<00:36:34.440> from<00:36:34.680> children.<00:36:35.079> So<00:36:35.839> really<00:36:36.200> simple<00:36:36.599> things<00:36:36.920> like,<00:36:37.480> I<00:36:37.640> had<00:36:37.800> a<00:36:37.920> dream<00:36:38.319> last<00:36:38.520> night<00:36:38.760> that<00:36:38.880> I<00:36:39.000> went<00:36:39.160> to<00:36:39.359> school<00:36:40.000> and<00:36:40.160> someone<00:36:40.560> gave<00:36:40.760> me<00:36:40.960> a<00:36:41.119> piece<00:36:41.359> of

00:36:41.680 --> 00:36:50.319
Lego<00:36:42.240> or<00:36:42.480> some<00:36:42.720> Lego<00:36:43.720> and<00:36:43.839> it<00:36:44.079> actually<00:36:44.560> happened.<00:36:45.560> So,<00:36:45.880> you<00:36:45.960> know,<00:36:46.079> it's<00:36:46.319> very<00:36:46.680> simple,<00:36:47.400> it's<00:36:47.680> really<00:36:48.000> subtle,<00:36:48.520> and<00:36:48.640> when<00:36:48.800> we're<00:36:49.079> researching<00:36:50.079> with

00:36:50.319 --> 00:36:58.800
groups<00:36:50.640> of<00:36:50.960> children,<00:36:51.880> you'll<00:36:52.160> hear<00:36:52.440> many<00:36:52.640> of<00:36:52.839> these<00:36:53.040> little<00:36:53.599> instances<00:36:54.160> of<00:36:54.640> lucid<00:36:55.200> dreams<00:36:55.760> or<00:36:56.079> like,<00:36:56.359> I<00:36:56.480> know<00:36:56.720> I'm<00:36:56.880> dreaming,<00:36:57.640> you<00:36:57.760> know,<00:36:57.880> and<00:36:58.040> I<00:36:58.160> can<00:36:58.400> change

00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:07.319
my<00:36:59.000> dream<00:36:59.359> and<00:36:59.839> all<00:37:00.040> these<00:37:00.280> kinds<00:37:00.480> of<00:37:01.359> things.<00:37:02.359> But<00:37:02.480> I<00:37:02.599> was<00:37:02.720> in<00:37:02.960> the<00:37:03.200> I<00:37:03.280> was<00:37:03.440> in<00:37:03.560> a<00:37:03.760> group<00:37:04.400> with<00:37:04.920> uh<00:37:05.040> 10<00:37:05.240> and<00:37:05.400> 11<00:37:05.760> year<00:37:06.000> olds<00:37:06.319> one<00:37:06.560> day<00:37:06.920> and

00:37:07.319 --> 00:37:15.920
um<00:37:07.880> we<00:37:08.119> we'd<00:37:08.280> done<00:37:08.440> the<00:37:08.640> exercise<00:37:09.119> of,<00:37:09.280> you<00:37:09.359> know,<00:37:09.560> can<00:37:09.680> you<00:37:09.839> draw<00:37:10.440> anything<00:37:10.920> that<00:37:11.119> might<00:37:11.359> be<00:37:11.839> a<00:37:11.960> little<00:37:12.160> bit<00:37:12.359> unusual,<00:37:13.359> you<00:37:13.480> know,<00:37:13.920> out<00:37:14.079> of<00:37:14.240> the<00:37:14.640> ordinary<00:37:15.640> and

00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:24.119
everyone's<00:37:16.280> drawing<00:37:17.000> these<00:37:17.280> little<00:37:17.640> experiences<00:37:18.440> and<00:37:18.920> and<00:37:19.160> this<00:37:19.440> one<00:37:19.800> child,<00:37:20.440> um,<00:37:20.839> she<00:37:21.040> had<00:37:21.200> all<00:37:21.359> the<00:37:21.560> paints<00:37:22.000> out<00:37:22.280> and<00:37:22.760> she's<00:37:23.079> just<00:37:23.240> doing<00:37:23.720> this<00:37:23.960> and

00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:32.319
then<00:37:24.240> she's<00:37:24.760> putting<00:37:25.440> bits<00:37:25.720> of<00:37:25.920> glitter<00:37:26.359> on,<00:37:26.720> um,<00:37:27.720> it<00:37:27.839> was<00:37:28.040> such<00:37:28.240> a<00:37:28.480> masterpiece.<00:37:29.079> It<00:37:29.200> was<00:37:29.359> absolutely<00:37:29.760> stunning.<00:37:30.119> When<00:37:30.240> she'd<00:37:30.520> finished,<00:37:31.359> I<00:37:31.480> said<00:37:31.680> to<00:37:31.839> her,<00:37:32.040> you<00:37:32.119> know,

00:37:32.319 --> 00:37:41.119
what's<00:37:32.720> this<00:37:32.960> that<00:37:33.079> you're<00:37:33.240> trying<00:37:33.480> to<00:37:33.800> represent?<00:37:34.520> And<00:37:34.640> she<00:37:35.640> said,<00:37:36.640> ah,<00:37:36.800> she<00:37:36.960> said,<00:37:37.319> well,<00:37:38.200> this<00:37:38.319> is<00:37:38.520> what<00:37:38.720> someone<00:37:39.119> showed<00:37:39.560> me<00:37:39.839> when<00:37:40.079> they<00:37:40.359> had

00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:50.240
died.<00:37:42.119> They<00:37:42.280> showed<00:37:42.599> me<00:37:42.760> the<00:37:43.359> afterlife.<00:37:44.359> And<00:37:44.520> she<00:37:44.800> proceeded<00:37:45.240> to<00:37:45.440> give<00:37:45.560> me<00:37:45.680> a<00:37:45.839> tour<00:37:46.200> of<00:37:46.359> the<00:37:46.839> afterlife<00:37:47.839> from<00:37:48.400> what<00:37:48.560> she<00:37:48.880> described<00:37:49.560> as

00:37:50.240 --> 00:37:59.400
someone<00:37:50.599> showed<00:37:51.040> her<00:37:51.240> what<00:37:51.400> it's<00:37:51.640> like<00:37:52.000> when<00:37:52.240> they<00:37:52.440> had<00:37:52.680> died<00:37:53.240> in<00:37:53.319> the<00:37:53.480> dying<00:37:53.920> process.<00:37:54.680> So<00:37:54.880> it<00:37:54.960> was<00:37:55.079> this<00:37:55.319> amazing<00:37:55.800> picture<00:37:56.240> and<00:37:56.400> she<00:37:56.599> said<00:37:56.960> that<00:37:57.119> she<00:37:58.119> had<00:37:59.119> had

00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:08.040
information<00:38:00.119> from<00:38:00.560> a<00:38:00.760> dying<00:38:01.280> person<00:38:02.240> that<00:38:02.480> this<00:38:02.680> was<00:38:02.880> the<00:38:03.040> afterlife.<00:38:03.640> So<00:38:03.760> it<00:38:03.839> was<00:38:04.040> someone<00:38:04.480> who<00:38:04.839> had<00:38:04.960> been<00:38:05.160> in<00:38:05.280> the<00:38:05.480> dying<00:38:05.880> process<00:38:06.839> and<00:38:06.960> she<00:38:07.160> a<00:38:07.240> stranger<00:38:07.920> or

00:38:08.040 --> 00:38:16.440
a<00:38:08.200> feminine<00:38:08.720> a<00:38:08.839> stranger<00:38:09.720> apparently.<00:38:10.200> She<00:38:10.359> said<00:38:10.720> she<00:38:10.839> said<00:38:11.040> it<00:38:11.160> was<00:38:11.280> a<00:38:11.760> dream,<00:38:12.760> um,<00:38:13.160> but<00:38:13.480> interestingly<00:38:14.000> all<00:38:14.280> the<00:38:14.720> children<00:38:15.720> they<00:38:15.839> will<00:38:16.000> start<00:38:16.280> to

00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:24.800
talk<00:38:16.720> about<00:38:17.000> it<00:38:17.160> in<00:38:17.319> terms<00:38:17.599> of<00:38:18.200> dreams,<00:38:19.200> um,<00:38:19.440> and<00:38:19.680> I<00:38:19.880> think<00:38:20.880> as<00:38:21.040> they<00:38:21.200> get<00:38:21.480> older<00:38:21.880> they're<00:38:22.119> very<00:38:22.480> conscious<00:38:23.119> of,<00:38:24.119> I'm<00:38:24.240> not<00:38:24.400> sure<00:38:24.680> I

00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:32.839
can<00:38:24.960> talk<00:38:25.240> about<00:38:25.599> this<00:38:25.880> because<00:38:26.520> it's<00:38:26.680> a<00:38:26.800> bit<00:38:26.960> weird<00:38:27.200> or<00:38:27.480> it's<00:38:27.599> a<00:38:27.680> bit<00:38:27.839> strange.<00:38:28.599> But<00:38:28.760> dreams<00:38:29.079> are<00:38:29.280> actually<00:38:29.520> a<00:38:29.680> really<00:38:29.920> safe<00:38:30.359> topic<00:38:30.839> for<00:38:31.040> all<00:38:31.319> children<00:38:31.800> because<00:38:32.400> we<00:38:32.560> see

00:38:32.839 --> 00:38:41.480
them<00:38:33.000> as<00:38:33.160> so<00:38:33.960> normal.<00:38:34.960> And<00:38:35.599> in<00:38:35.760> this<00:38:36.000> afterlife<00:38:36.680> there<00:38:36.800> was<00:38:37.119> kind<00:38:37.319> of<00:38:37.880> there<00:38:38.000> was<00:38:38.119> a<00:38:38.359> river,<00:38:39.040> this<00:38:39.240> huge<00:38:39.520> river,<00:38:39.960> and<00:38:40.160> she<00:38:40.319> was<00:38:40.599> describing<00:38:41.200> this

00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:49.680
process<00:38:41.920> of<00:38:42.560> as<00:38:42.680> we<00:38:42.920> move<00:38:43.480> down<00:38:43.680> into<00:38:44.000> this<00:38:44.359> river,<00:38:45.359> bits<00:38:45.640> of<00:38:45.839> who<00:38:46.040> we<00:38:46.319> are,<00:38:47.319> such<00:38:47.520> as<00:38:47.800> memories,<00:38:48.800> basically<00:38:49.359> she<00:38:49.520> was

00:38:49.680 --> 00:38:57.480
speaking<00:38:50.000> about<00:38:50.240> the<00:38:50.400> contents<00:38:50.880> of<00:38:51.119> mind<00:38:51.839> that<00:38:51.960> were<00:38:52.119> just<00:38:52.319> kind<00:38:52.440> of<00:38:52.640> coming<00:38:52.960> away<00:38:53.200> and<00:38:53.359> coming<00:38:53.640> away<00:38:53.880> until<00:38:54.119> you<00:38:54.280> get<00:38:54.440> to<00:38:54.680> this<00:38:55.040> kind<00:38:55.240> of<00:38:55.920> all<00:38:56.280> Oneness<00:38:56.920> kind<00:38:57.079> of<00:38:57.240> thing

00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:05.560
thing.<00:38:58.119> So<00:38:58.359> that<00:38:58.560> really<00:38:58.800> blew<00:38:59.119> me<00:38:59.359> away.<00:38:59.680> It<00:38:59.800> was<00:38:59.920> a<00:39:00.040> real<00:39:00.319> curveball<00:39:01.000> and<00:39:01.160> I<00:39:01.400> I<00:39:01.520> just<00:39:01.920> didn't<00:39:02.160> know<00:39:02.319> what<00:39:02.400> to<00:39:02.560> say<00:39:02.839> to<00:39:03.040> that.<00:39:03.240> And<00:39:03.680> normally<00:39:04.079> I'll<00:39:04.319> be<00:39:04.640> like,<00:39:05.079> you<00:39:05.200> know,<00:39:05.440> as

00:39:05.560 --> 00:39:12.319
you<00:39:05.760> doing<00:39:05.960> this<00:39:06.079> interview<00:39:06.440> you<00:39:06.520> might<00:39:06.680> be<00:39:06.839> thinking<00:39:07.119> about<00:39:07.319> the<00:39:07.520> next<00:39:07.839> question,<00:39:08.240> and<00:39:08.720> research<00:39:09.240> with<00:39:09.440> children<00:39:09.800> is<00:39:09.960> very<00:39:10.200> similar.<00:39:10.599> It's<00:39:10.800> very<00:39:11.040> emergent<00:39:11.720> in<00:39:11.839> the<00:39:12.040> sense

00:39:12.319 --> 00:39:20.240
of,<00:39:12.839> you<00:39:12.960> know,<00:39:13.119> you<00:39:13.240> have<00:39:13.440> to<00:39:13.520> be<00:39:13.680> really<00:39:14.000> responsive<00:39:14.599> because<00:39:14.760> you<00:39:14.920> don't<00:39:15.319> quite<00:39:15.520> know<00:39:15.720> what's<00:39:15.960> going<00:39:16.119> to<00:39:16.400> happen.<00:39:17.280> Anything<00:39:17.720> can<00:39:17.960> happen.<00:39:18.599> They<00:39:18.720> can<00:39:18.920> hang<00:39:19.200> off<00:39:19.440> chairs,

00:39:20.240 --> 00:39:28.920
they<00:39:20.400> can<00:39:20.560> go<00:39:20.800> missing<00:39:21.200> when<00:39:21.400> they<00:39:21.520> go<00:39:21.640> to<00:39:21.760> the<00:39:21.920> toilet,<00:39:22.359> you<00:39:22.440> know,<00:39:22.520> you<00:39:22.680> always<00:39:23.000> have<00:39:23.160> to<00:39:23.319> be<00:39:23.760> prepared,<00:39:24.760> um.<00:39:25.359> But<00:39:25.599> this<00:39:25.760> was<00:39:25.960> a<00:39:26.200> real,<00:39:26.839> yeah,<00:39:27.079> this<00:39:27.560> really<00:39:27.839> blew<00:39:28.160> me<00:39:28.359> away.

00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:37.240
And,<00:39:29.920> uh,<00:39:30.079> another<00:39:30.359> one<00:39:30.480> that<00:39:30.599> blew<00:39:30.880> me<00:39:31.000> away<00:39:31.240> was<00:39:31.359> a<00:39:31.520> little<00:39:31.800> boy<00:39:32.119> who<00:39:32.359> was<00:39:32.760> five<00:39:33.240> and<00:39:33.800> really<00:39:34.280> sadly,<00:39:35.280> um,<00:39:35.520> his<00:39:35.760> teacher<00:39:36.280> died<00:39:37.079> and

00:39:37.240 --> 00:39:45.720
it<00:39:37.319> was<00:39:37.560> very<00:39:37.760> sudden<00:39:38.200> and<00:39:38.359> unexpected<00:39:39.319> and<00:39:39.839> he'd<00:39:40.079> not<00:39:40.280> been<00:39:40.520> coping<00:39:41.119> very<00:39:41.359> well<00:39:41.680> with<00:39:41.920> that<00:39:42.319> as<00:39:42.560> as<00:39:42.680> you<00:39:42.800> can<00:39:43.240> imagine.<00:39:44.240> And<00:39:44.680> he<00:39:45.000> described<00:39:45.520> a

00:39:45.720 --> 00:39:54.240
dream<00:39:46.200> that<00:39:46.400> he<00:39:46.680> had<00:39:47.560> where<00:39:48.040> he<00:39:48.240> met<00:39:48.640> his<00:39:48.880> teacher<00:39:49.880> and<00:39:50.160> what<00:39:50.319> he<00:39:50.520> described<00:39:51.000> as<00:39:51.119> a<00:39:51.359> rainbow<00:39:51.960> bridge.<00:39:52.960> And<00:39:53.200> his<00:39:53.359> teacher<00:39:53.800> said

00:39:54.240 --> 00:40:03.319
she<00:39:54.440> reassured<00:39:55.240> him,<00:39:56.240> she<00:39:56.400> said,<00:39:56.800> I'm<00:39:57.000> walking<00:39:57.480> okay,<00:39:58.280> I<00:39:58.400> want<00:39:58.560> you<00:39:58.680> to<00:39:58.839> start<00:39:59.079> to<00:39:59.240> feel<00:39:59.599> happy<00:40:00.000> again,<00:40:00.359> I<00:40:00.440> don't<00:40:00.560> want<00:40:00.680> you<00:40:00.760> to<00:40:00.920> worry<00:40:01.280> anymore<00:40:01.839> and<00:40:02.040> I'm<00:40:02.440> okay.

00:40:03.319 --> 00:40:11.640
And<00:40:03.480> then<00:40:03.800> his<00:40:03.960> mom<00:40:04.280> reported<00:40:04.920> that<00:40:05.079> when<00:40:05.280> he'd<00:40:05.560> had<00:40:05.720> that<00:40:05.920> dream<00:40:06.400> he<00:40:06.680> really<00:40:07.079> really<00:40:08.200> improved.<00:40:09.200> Now<00:40:09.440> what<00:40:09.599> blew<00:40:09.880> me<00:40:10.040> away<00:40:10.359> about<00:40:10.760> that,<00:40:11.079> of<00:40:11.240> course<00:40:11.480> it's

00:40:11.640 --> 00:40:19.760
a<00:40:11.839> great<00:40:12.200> experience<00:40:13.119> and<00:40:13.680> it's<00:40:13.960> great<00:40:14.319> that<00:40:14.440> you<00:40:14.640> hear<00:40:14.880> about<00:40:15.200> children<00:40:16.000> feeling<00:40:16.440> well<00:40:16.760> again,<00:40:17.560> but<00:40:17.720> it<00:40:17.839> was<00:40:18.119> actually<00:40:18.400> the<00:40:18.560> Rainbow<00:40:19.119> Bridge<00:40:19.640> that

00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:28.599
blew<00:40:20.079> me<00:40:20.280> away<00:40:20.839> because<00:40:21.839> this<00:40:21.960> little<00:40:22.240> boy<00:40:22.520> was<00:40:22.680> from<00:40:22.800> a<00:40:23.000> secular<00:40:24.040> family,<00:40:25.040> um,<00:40:25.359> you<00:40:25.480> know,<00:40:25.640> there<00:40:25.760> was<00:40:25.880> no<00:40:26.200> rich<00:40:26.680> cultural<00:40:28.000> stories

00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:37.079
around<00:40:29.280> this<00:40:29.680> child.<00:40:30.680> But<00:40:30.880> if<00:40:30.960> you<00:40:31.160> think<00:40:31.440> about<00:40:31.760> the<00:40:31.920> Rainbow<00:40:32.480> Bridge<00:40:33.280> in<00:40:33.440> terms<00:40:33.760> of<00:40:34.119> cultural<00:40:34.960> mythology,<00:40:35.960> it's<00:40:36.160> meant<00:40:36.400> to<00:40:36.560> be<00:40:36.800> the

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place<00:40:37.560> where<00:40:37.760> you<00:40:37.960> meet.<00:40:38.599> I<00:40:38.680> think<00:40:38.880> it's<00:40:39.040> the<00:40:39.200> Hopi<00:40:39.720> tribes<00:40:40.319> maybe<00:40:40.599> that<00:40:40.760> talk<00:40:41.040> about<00:40:41.280> the<00:40:41.400> Rainbow<00:40:41.920> Bridge<00:40:42.720> and<00:40:42.920> and<00:40:43.119> and<00:40:43.400> other<00:40:43.640> communities,<00:40:44.319> but<00:40:44.680> it's<00:40:44.800> where<00:40:44.960> you<00:40:45.040> meant

00:40:45.240 --> 00:40:53.520
to<00:40:45.400> meet<00:40:45.960> your<00:40:46.200> deceased<00:40:46.720> loved<00:40:47.160> ones.<00:40:48.319> So<00:40:49.319> that's<00:40:49.599> what<00:40:49.800> blew<00:40:50.119> me<00:40:50.280> away.<00:40:50.599> So<00:40:50.880> I<00:40:51.079> I<00:40:51.319> then<00:40:51.440> I<00:40:51.560> would<00:40:51.760> think,<00:40:52.040> well,<00:40:52.560> you<00:40:52.680> know,<00:40:52.839> how<00:40:53.000> does<00:40:53.200> such<00:40:53.359> a

00:40:53.520 --> 00:41:02.520
young<00:40:53.928> child<00:40:54.336> tap<00:40:54.744> into<00:40:55.152> that<00:40:55.560> knowledge?<00:40:55.968> And<00:40:56.376> it's<00:40:56.784> a<00:40:57.192> cultural<00:40:57.600> knowledge<00:40:58.008> as<00:40:58.416> well.<00:40:58.824> So<00:40:59.232> it's<00:40:59.640> it's<00:41:00.048> gone<00:41:00.456> across,<00:41:00.864> it<00:41:01.272> transcends<00:41:01.680> histories,

00:41:02.520 --> 00:41:10.880
any<00:41:02.760> kind<00:41:02.880> of<00:41:03.000> cultural<00:41:03.359> knowledge<00:41:03.640> like<00:41:03.800> that,<00:41:04.119> you're<00:41:04.280> transcending<00:41:04.960> histories<00:41:05.440> and<00:41:05.720> times.<00:41:06.200> And<00:41:06.960> so<00:41:07.640> that's<00:41:07.960> fascinating<00:41:08.640> to<00:41:08.839> me<00:41:09.000> and<00:41:09.160> I<00:41:09.280> think<00:41:10.119> that's<00:41:10.400> the<00:41:10.640> kind

00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:18.960
of,<00:41:11.880> um,<00:41:12.280> data<00:41:12.720> that<00:41:12.880> I<00:41:13.000> would<00:41:13.280> like<00:41:13.480> to<00:41:13.680> research<00:41:14.119> more.<00:41:14.640> How<00:41:14.800> we<00:41:15.000> do<00:41:15.359> that,<00:41:16.160> I'm<00:41:16.319> not<00:41:16.520> sure.<00:41:17.119> But,<00:41:17.800> um,<00:41:18.359> one<00:41:18.560> thing<00:41:18.760> that<00:41:18.880> I

00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:27.720
am<00:41:19.119> doing<00:41:19.319> at<00:41:19.440> the<00:41:19.560> minute<00:41:19.960> is<00:41:20.680> collecting<00:41:21.319> children's<00:41:22.119> abstract<00:41:23.280> images<00:41:24.280> because,<00:41:24.599> interestingly,<00:41:25.240> when<00:41:25.440> children<00:41:25.839> have<00:41:26.040> these<00:41:26.280> kinds<00:41:26.520> of<00:41:26.720> experiences<00:41:27.520> again

00:41:27.720 --> 00:41:36.599
that<00:41:27.839> go<00:41:28.079> beyond<00:41:28.440> personhood,<00:41:29.079> time,<00:41:29.400> space,<00:41:29.760> how<00:41:29.880> we<00:41:30.079> typically<00:41:30.760> define<00:41:31.079> it<00:41:31.200> and<00:41:31.359> think<00:41:31.640> about<00:41:31.960> it,<00:41:32.920> they<00:41:33.040> start<00:41:33.359> to<00:41:33.480> draw<00:41:33.800> geometrical<00:41:35.079> patterns,<00:41:36.079> um,

00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:44.920
they<00:41:36.720> can<00:41:36.880> draw<00:41:37.160> mandalas,<00:41:38.119> they<00:41:38.240> can<00:41:39.040> draw,<00:41:40.040> um,<00:41:40.800> kind<00:41:41.280> of,<00:41:42.280> yeah,<00:41:42.480> geometrical<00:41:43.079> patterns<00:41:43.400> where<00:41:43.599> lines<00:41:43.880> are<00:41:44.079> crisscrossing,<00:41:44.760> but

00:41:44.920 --> 00:41:53.160
it's<00:41:45.040> forming<00:41:45.440> a<00:41:45.920> pattern<00:41:46.920> and<00:41:47.920> that<00:41:48.079> they<00:41:48.240> have<00:41:48.440> no<00:41:48.680> words<00:41:49.319> sometimes<00:41:49.560> to<00:41:49.800> talk<00:41:50.119> about<00:41:50.400> their<00:41:50.680> experiences.<00:41:51.520> So<00:41:51.720> they<00:41:51.800> will<00:41:52.000> doodle<00:41:52.480> and<00:41:52.640> they<00:41:52.720> will<00:41:52.920> start

00:41:53.160 --> 00:42:01.640
to<00:41:53.359> do<00:41:53.680> this.<00:41:54.599> So<00:41:54.839> I'm<00:41:55.040> collecting<00:41:55.520> these<00:41:55.680> in<00:41:55.800> a<00:41:56.000> database<00:41:56.680> now<00:41:56.839> and<00:41:56.960> asking<00:41:57.480> questions,<00:41:58.119> well,<00:41:58.800> you<00:41:58.920> know,<00:41:59.240> what<00:41:59.400> is<00:41:59.520> it?<00:41:59.920> What<00:42:00.079> what<00:42:00.160> are<00:42:00.400> these<00:42:00.720> patterns?<00:42:01.440> Are

00:42:01.640 --> 00:42:10.359
are<00:42:01.800> they<00:42:02.160> primordial<00:42:03.000> to<00:42:03.760> to<00:42:04.079> something?<00:42:04.880> You<00:42:05.000> know,<00:42:05.359> why<00:42:05.520> is<00:42:05.640> it<00:42:05.880> that<00:42:06.400> these<00:42:06.560> are<00:42:06.839> the<00:42:07.040> patterns<00:42:07.480> that<00:42:07.599> are<00:42:07.760> being<00:42:08.079> used<00:42:08.520> by<00:42:08.800> children<00:42:09.560> to<00:42:09.880> express

00:42:10.359 --> 00:42:18.680
this<00:42:10.560> bigger<00:42:10.960> sense<00:42:11.280> of<00:42:11.520> self<00:42:12.319> or<00:42:12.640> these<00:42:12.880> very<00:42:13.280> unusual<00:42:13.880> experiences<00:42:14.480> that<00:42:14.680> are<00:42:14.839> going<00:42:15.079> beyond<00:42:15.400> our<00:42:15.760> normal<00:42:16.560> space<00:42:16.880> and<00:42:17.160> time,<00:42:17.800> uh,<00:42:17.920> and<00:42:18.119> these<00:42:18.319> kinds<00:42:18.480> of

00:42:18.680 --> 00:42:26.079
things.<00:42:19.640> So<00:42:20.040> I've<00:42:20.160> been<00:42:20.359> collecting<00:42:20.800> those<00:42:21.000> for<00:42:21.160> a<00:42:21.280> while<00:42:21.480> and<00:42:21.559> that's<00:42:21.760> really<00:42:22.040> interesting<00:42:22.720> and<00:42:22.839> we<00:42:22.960> can,<00:42:23.319> you<00:42:23.440> know,<00:42:23.599> look<00:42:23.720> at<00:42:23.880> that<00:42:24.040> from<00:42:24.240> kind<00:42:24.359> of<00:42:24.440> a<00:42:24.599> semiotics<00:42:25.520> perspective

00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:34.400
for<00:42:26.240> example,<00:42:26.720> which<00:42:26.839> is<00:42:27.640> thinking<00:42:28.119> about<00:42:28.720> sign<00:42:29.119> and<00:42:29.880> signification.<00:42:30.880> So,<00:42:31.200> you<00:42:31.359> know,<00:42:31.880> what<00:42:32.040> is<00:42:32.280> this<00:42:32.480> sign<00:42:32.839> representing?<00:42:33.520> Well,<00:42:33.640> it's<00:42:33.800> not<00:42:33.920> it<00:42:34.040> doesn't<00:42:34.240> seem

00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:43.480
to<00:42:34.640> representing<00:42:35.240> anything<00:42:35.559> immediate<00:42:36.400> in<00:42:36.559> the<00:42:36.720> social<00:42:37.079> and<00:42:37.240> cultural<00:42:37.680> world<00:42:37.960> of<00:42:38.119> this<00:42:38.559> child,<00:42:39.559> but<00:42:39.839> but<00:42:40.000> it's<00:42:40.319> the,<00:42:41.160> um,<00:42:41.880> and<00:42:42.160> interestingly<00:42:43.160> I've

00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:52.720
just,<00:42:44.480> you<00:42:44.599> know,<00:42:44.760> completing<00:42:45.280> a<00:42:45.440> piece<00:42:45.640> of<00:42:45.839> research<00:42:46.400> where<00:42:47.280> we<00:42:47.800> analyzed<00:42:48.520> canvases<00:42:49.680> produced<00:42:50.680> from,<00:42:51.440> um,<00:42:51.880> 40,000

00:42:52.720 --> 00:43:00.880
canvases<00:42:53.440> produced<00:42:53.880> by<00:42:54.079> children.<00:42:54.880> I<00:42:55.000> did<00:42:55.200> not<00:42:55.400> analyze<00:42:55.880> 40,000,<00:42:56.760> but<00:42:58.000> this<00:42:58.119> was<00:42:58.400> part<00:42:58.760> of,<00:42:59.200> um,<00:42:59.640> a<00:42:59.920> project.<00:43:00.400> He<00:43:00.520> was<00:43:00.760> a

00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:09.119
Turner<00:43:01.400> Prize-winning<00:43:02.119> artist,<00:43:02.559> Oscar<00:43:02.960> Murillo.<00:43:03.480> I<00:43:03.559> don't<00:43:03.640> know<00:43:03.720> if<00:43:03.800> you've<00:43:03.960> come<00:43:04.160> across<00:43:04.480> his<00:43:04.839> fantastic<00:43:05.559> work,<00:43:06.559> but<00:43:06.800> he<00:43:07.040> did<00:43:07.240> a<00:43:07.440> project<00:43:07.800> where<00:43:08.079> in<00:43:08.280> schools<00:43:08.720> all<00:43:08.920> over

00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:17.400
the<00:43:09.240> world<00:43:09.520> he<00:43:09.720> just<00:43:10.160> put<00:43:10.400> empty<00:43:10.839> canvases<00:43:11.480> down<00:43:11.720> on<00:43:11.880> the<00:43:12.079> tables<00:43:13.079> and<00:43:13.280> children<00:43:13.599> were<00:43:13.760> asked<00:43:13.960> to<00:43:14.079> do<00:43:14.280> something<00:43:14.599> called<00:43:14.839> free<00:43:15.240> marking.<00:43:16.240> So<00:43:16.440> free<00:43:16.720> marking<00:43:17.200> is

00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:25.800
where,<00:43:17.920> you<00:43:18.040> know,<00:43:18.200> you're<00:43:18.400> in<00:43:18.559> school<00:43:18.920> but<00:43:19.040> you're<00:43:19.160> not<00:43:19.440> asked<00:43:19.680> to<00:43:19.839> do<00:43:20.119> something,<00:43:20.480> you<00:43:20.640> just<00:43:20.800> want<00:43:21.079> you<00:43:21.280> just<00:43:21.480> asked<00:43:21.760> to<00:43:21.920> mark.<00:43:22.720> These<00:43:22.839> are<00:43:23.000> children<00:43:23.400> age<00:43:23.680> 11<00:43:24.000> to<00:43:24.240> 16.<00:43:25.240> So

00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:34.720
um<00:43:26.200> I<00:43:26.359> took<00:43:26.520> a<00:43:26.680> sample<00:43:26.960> of<00:43:27.280> those<00:43:27.480> canvases<00:43:28.079> and<00:43:28.240> I<00:43:28.319> wanted<00:43:28.640> to<00:43:28.880> see<00:43:29.240> if<00:43:29.359> I<00:43:29.520> could<00:43:29.680> see<00:43:29.920> any<00:43:30.160> similar<00:43:30.559> geometrical<00:43:31.280> patterns<00:43:31.640> and<00:43:32.040> mandalas,<00:43:33.040> and<00:43:33.240> lo<00:43:33.480> and<00:43:33.680> behold<00:43:34.480> they're

00:43:34.720 --> 00:43:43.920
there<00:43:34.880> in<00:43:35.079> the<00:43:35.480> canvases.<00:43:36.480> And<00:43:36.640> these<00:43:36.800> are<00:43:36.960> from<00:43:37.520> children<00:43:38.119> from,<00:43:38.520> I<00:43:38.599> mean,<00:43:38.960> countries<00:43:39.359> all<00:43:39.559> over<00:43:39.839> the<00:43:39.960> world:<00:43:40.359> Ukraine,<00:43:41.040> Mexico,<00:43:41.920> Africa,<00:43:42.920> everywhere.

00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:53.160
So<00:43:44.119> these<00:43:44.240> are<00:43:44.400> children<00:43:44.960> with<00:43:45.240> very<00:43:45.559> different<00:43:46.760> geographies,<00:43:47.760> you<00:43:47.920> know,<00:43:48.480> cultural,<00:43:49.480> uh,<00:43:49.680> influences,<00:43:50.680> school<00:43:51.839> context,<00:43:52.839> but

00:43:53.160 --> 00:44:01.480
somewhere<00:43:53.559> in<00:43:53.720> there<00:43:53.920> for<00:43:54.119> some<00:43:54.319> reason<00:43:54.640> they're<00:43:54.839> being<00:43:55.200> creative<00:43:56.079> and<00:43:56.400> these<00:43:57.200> patterns<00:43:57.559> are<00:43:57.720> emerging<00:43:58.240> again.<00:43:59.200> So,<00:43:59.839> um,<00:44:00.640> it's<00:44:00.839> it's<00:44:01.000> just<00:44:01.240> very

00:44:01.480 --> 00:44:10.280
interesting<00:44:02.000> and<00:44:02.200> it<00:44:02.440> it<00:44:02.599> leads<00:44:02.880> to<00:44:03.079> those<00:44:03.319> questions<00:44:03.760> of<00:44:04.680> knowledge,<00:44:05.680> you<00:44:05.800> know,<00:44:06.040> learned<00:44:06.599> intelligence<00:44:07.520> versus<00:44:08.000> some<00:44:08.280> kind<00:44:08.599> of<00:44:09.599> prior

00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:17.359
or<00:44:10.640> in<00:44:10.920> inner<00:44:11.200> knowledge<00:44:11.720> that's<00:44:11.960> coming<00:44:12.240> through<00:44:12.640> again<00:44:12.880> that<00:44:13.079> we<00:44:13.319> dismiss<00:44:14.319> and<00:44:14.440> we<00:44:14.559> don't<00:44:14.760> look

00:44:17.359 --> 00:44:26.280
at.<00:44:18.359> In<00:44:18.520> your<00:44:18.760> experience,<00:44:19.760> how<00:44:20.000> does<00:44:20.880> current<00:44:21.319> materialist<00:44:21.960> science<00:44:22.760> explain<00:44:23.680> the<00:44:23.880> sort<00:44:24.079> of<00:44:24.920> extrasensory<00:44:25.760> experiences

00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:34.559
in<00:44:26.480> children?<00:44:27.720> Yeah,<00:44:27.960> well,<00:44:28.119> it<00:44:28.240> doesn't.<00:44:29.240> No,<00:44:29.400> it<00:44:29.559> doesn't.<00:44:30.559> It<00:44:30.680> doesn't.<00:44:31.040> I<00:44:31.119> think<00:44:31.280> it<00:44:31.440> dismisses<00:44:32.079> them<00:44:32.319> as<00:44:32.839> imagination,<00:44:33.839> as<00:44:33.960> it<00:44:34.119> not<00:44:34.280> being

00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:42.920
real,<00:44:35.119> as<00:44:35.680> it's<00:44:35.880> just<00:44:36.119> because<00:44:36.520> the<00:44:36.720> children.<00:44:37.200> But<00:44:37.359> it's<00:44:37.599> that<00:44:37.800> just<00:44:38.040> because,<00:44:38.319> and<00:44:38.440> it<00:44:38.559> doesn't<00:44:38.839> give<00:44:39.040> any<00:44:39.319> other,<00:44:40.319> um,<00:44:40.800> explanation<00:44:41.480> for<00:44:41.760> it<00:44:41.960> because<00:44:42.079> it's<00:44:42.240> that<00:44:42.440> assumption

00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:51.319
isn't<00:44:43.200> it,<00:44:43.400> that<00:44:43.640> the<00:44:43.839> brain<00:44:44.160> is<00:44:44.319> the<00:44:44.640> producer<00:44:45.640> of<00:44:45.880> subjective<00:44:46.480> experience<00:44:47.040> of<00:44:47.760> consciousness,<00:44:48.760> um,<00:44:49.119> and<00:44:49.440> and<00:44:49.599> that's<00:44:49.760> not<00:44:49.920> a<00:44:50.160> possibility<00:44:51.160> in

00:44:51.319 --> 00:44:59.559
in<00:44:51.440> our<00:44:51.760> physical<00:44:52.240> world.<00:44:52.920> So<00:44:53.240> it's<00:44:53.440> just<00:44:53.680> dismissed.<00:44:54.160> So<00:44:54.280> it<00:44:54.359> doesn't<00:44:54.559> do<00:44:54.800> anything<00:44:55.280> with<00:44:55.520> them,<00:44:56.520> um.<00:44:58.240> What<00:44:58.839> in<00:44:58.960> terms<00:44:59.200> of<00:44:59.359> these

00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:08.000
kinds<00:44:59.760> of<00:44:59.960> experiences<00:45:00.720> again,<00:45:01.000> it<00:45:01.160> tends<00:45:01.480> to<00:45:01.640> be<00:45:01.880> approached<00:45:02.480> from,<00:45:03.280> well,<00:45:03.440> there<00:45:03.559> must<00:45:03.760> be<00:45:03.920> something<00:45:04.280> wrong<00:45:04.680> then,<00:45:05.280> you<00:45:05.559> know,<00:45:06.559> there<00:45:06.680> must<00:45:06.839> be<00:45:07.800> there's

00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:16.839
something<00:45:08.280> going<00:45:08.559> wrong<00:45:08.880> with<00:45:09.040> the<00:45:09.520> machine,<00:45:10.520> yeah,<00:45:10.720> you<00:45:10.800> know,<00:45:11.160> it's<00:45:11.319> illness,<00:45:11.920> it's<00:45:12.119> illness.<00:45:13.119> And<00:45:13.359> interestingly,<00:45:14.359> you<00:45:14.440> know,<00:45:14.599> in<00:45:14.720> some<00:45:14.880> of<00:45:15.040> my<00:45:15.200> own<00:45:15.480> research<00:45:16.000> studies

00:45:16.839 --> 00:45:25.160
there<00:45:17.000> is<00:45:17.160> a<00:45:17.400> higher<00:45:17.839> incidence<00:45:18.800> of<00:45:19.440> reports<00:45:19.920> of<00:45:20.160> these<00:45:20.400> experiences<00:45:21.079> from<00:45:21.359> children<00:45:22.040> who<00:45:22.240> do<00:45:22.559> have<00:45:22.760> medical<00:45:23.400> conditions<00:45:24.119> sometimes.<00:45:24.839> So

00:45:25.160 --> 00:45:33.280
things<00:45:25.440> like<00:45:25.760> epilepsy,<00:45:27.319> um,<00:45:28.240> what<00:45:28.359> are<00:45:28.559> the<00:45:28.680> other<00:45:29.319> examples?<00:45:30.319> Just<00:45:30.559> just,<00:45:30.760> you<00:45:30.839> know,<00:45:31.040> these<00:45:31.240> kinds<00:45:31.400> of<00:45:31.720> conditions<00:45:32.000> that<00:45:32.760> conditions<00:45:33.040> that<00:45:33.160> are

00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:41.839
linked<00:45:33.559> to<00:45:33.760> inflammation<00:45:34.640> in<00:45:34.800> the<00:45:35.200> body,<00:45:36.200> um,<00:45:36.680> and<00:45:37.160> inflammation<00:45:37.920> that<00:45:38.200> may<00:45:38.559> affect<00:45:38.920> in<00:45:39.079> some<00:45:39.359> ways<00:45:39.720> how<00:45:39.920> the<00:45:40.079> brain<00:45:40.720> operates,<00:45:41.720> which

00:45:41.839 --> 00:45:50.240
is<00:45:42.040> really<00:45:42.359> interesting.<00:45:43.280> But<00:45:43.480> that<00:45:43.640> doesn't<00:45:43.960> mean<00:45:44.319> that<00:45:44.480> it's<00:45:44.720> the<00:45:44.880> brain<00:45:45.280> that<00:45:45.480> produces<00:45:46.640> consciousness.<00:45:47.640> It,<00:45:47.760> you<00:45:47.839> know,<00:45:48.000> it<00:45:48.119> could<00:45:48.319> mean<00:45:48.760> the<00:45:49.000> the<00:45:49.160> reverse<00:45:49.680> of<00:45:49.960> that.

00:45:50.240 --> 00:45:59.480
So,<00:45:50.520> for<00:45:50.720> example,<00:45:51.599> um,<00:45:52.400> thinking<00:45:52.760> now<00:45:53.000> about<00:45:53.200> the<00:45:53.359> research<00:45:53.920> that<00:45:54.040> was<00:45:54.280> conducted<00:45:54.760> on<00:45:55.040> adult<00:45:55.440> psychedelic<00:45:56.119> users<00:45:56.640> where,<00:45:57.319> you<00:45:57.440> know,<00:45:57.640> that<00:45:57.920> hypothesis<00:45:58.720> was

00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:05.880
yeah,<00:45:59.680> you<00:45:59.800> know,<00:46:00.280> um,<00:46:00.640> when<00:46:00.839> people<00:46:01.079> take<00:46:01.359> psychedelics<00:46:02.119> everything<00:46:02.359> will<00:46:02.559> light<00:46:02.839> up<00:46:03.000> and<00:46:03.160> more<00:46:03.440> things<00:46:03.720> will<00:46:03.960> work,<00:46:04.319> when<00:46:04.520> actually<00:46:04.800> it<00:46:04.960> was<00:46:05.079> the<00:46:05.240> reverse<00:46:05.640> and<00:46:05.800> there

00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:14.480
was<00:46:06.000> a<00:46:06.160> decrease<00:46:06.680> in<00:46:06.880> in<00:46:07.040> brain<00:46:07.680> activity.<00:46:08.680> So<00:46:09.119> if<00:46:09.240> there<00:46:09.359> is<00:46:09.480> a<00:46:09.599> decrease<00:46:10.040> in<00:46:10.160> brain<00:46:10.520> activity<00:46:10.960> with<00:46:11.160> children<00:46:11.680> due<00:46:11.920> to<00:46:12.119> inflammation<00:46:12.839> or<00:46:13.240> other<00:46:13.559> impairments<00:46:14.319> in

00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:23.040
the<00:46:14.680> brain,<00:46:15.640> you<00:46:15.760> know,<00:46:16.040> is<00:46:16.200> there<00:46:16.440> something<00:46:16.839> similar<00:46:17.280> going<00:46:17.520> on?<00:46:17.720> Is<00:46:17.839> it<00:46:18.000> actually<00:46:18.319> that<00:46:18.480> the<00:46:18.599> brain<00:46:18.960> might<00:46:19.160> be<00:46:19.319> filtering<00:46:20.119> something,<00:46:21.079> you<00:46:21.200> know,<00:46:21.480> rather<00:46:21.800> than<00:46:22.119> producing

00:46:23.040 --> 00:46:31.319
something<00:46:24.040> as<00:46:24.240> well?<00:46:24.599> And<00:46:24.839> and<00:46:25.000> again<00:46:25.680> we<00:46:25.800> don't<00:46:26.119> know.<00:46:26.480> But<00:46:26.960> in<00:46:27.119> terms<00:46:27.400> of<00:46:27.559> the<00:46:27.760> materialist<00:46:28.520> view,<00:46:29.520> it's<00:46:29.720> just<00:46:29.839> a<00:46:30.040> dysfunction<00:46:30.559> in<00:46:30.720> the<00:46:30.880> brain<00:46:31.160> and

00:46:31.319 --> 00:46:39.599
it<00:46:31.520> means,<00:46:32.520> you<00:46:32.640> know,<00:46:32.760> it's<00:46:32.920> not<00:46:33.359> producing<00:46:34.359> this<00:46:34.599> that<00:46:34.880> makes<00:46:35.200> this<00:46:35.480> work,<00:46:35.960> or,<00:46:36.960> um,<00:46:37.119> and<00:46:37.280> children<00:46:37.599> are<00:46:37.800> just<00:46:38.040> hallucinating.<00:46:38.760> Hallucination<00:46:39.480> is

00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:48.680
a<00:46:39.839> huge<00:46:40.280> word<00:46:40.720> word<00:46:40.960> in<00:46:41.119> the<00:46:41.240> medical<00:46:41.680> literature<00:46:42.200> with<00:46:42.960> children.<00:46:43.960> But<00:46:44.119> another<00:46:44.440> interesting<00:46:44.960> thing<00:46:45.280> is,<00:46:45.839> um,<00:46:46.720> in<00:46:46.880> some<00:46:47.040> of<00:46:47.200> the<00:46:47.400> psychiatry<00:46:48.200> research

00:46:48.680 --> 00:46:57.720
with<00:46:49.184> children<00:46:49.687> and<00:46:50.191> the<00:46:50.694> psychology<00:46:51.198> research,<00:46:51.701> they're<00:46:52.205> starting<00:46:52.708> to<00:46:53.212> talk<00:46:53.715> about<00:46:54.219> a<00:46:54.722> phenomena<00:46:55.226> called<00:46:55.729> PLEs,<00:46:56.233> um,<00:46:56.736> psychotic-like<00:46:57.240> experiences.

00:46:57.720 --> 00:47:06.079
Psychotic<00:46:58.202> psychotic-like,<00:46:58.685> terrible,<00:46:59.167> it's<00:46:59.649> terrible.<00:47:00.132> PLEs.<00:47:00.614> They're<00:47:01.096> starting<00:47:01.579> to<00:47:02.061> recognize<00:47:02.544> that,<00:47:03.026> um,<00:47:03.508> a<00:47:03.991> huge<00:47:04.473> part<00:47:04.955> of<00:47:05.438> child<00:47:05.920> populations,

00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:14.599
especially<00:47:06.511> puberty<00:47:06.942> age,<00:47:07.374> which<00:47:07.806> is<00:47:08.237> quite<00:47:08.669> interesting,<00:47:09.100> who<00:47:09.532> do<00:47:09.964> not<00:47:10.395> have<00:47:10.827> any<00:47:11.259> medical<00:47:11.690> conditions<00:47:12.122> and<00:47:12.553> who<00:47:12.985> are<00:47:13.417> not<00:47:13.848> under<00:47:14.280> some

00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:23.160
kind<00:47:15.276> of,<00:47:15.953> um,<00:47:16.629> mental<00:47:17.306> health<00:47:17.983> support<00:47:18.659> are<00:47:19.336> reporting<00:47:20.013> unusual<00:47:20.690> experiences,<00:47:21.367> extrasensory<00:47:22.043> experiences,<00:47:22.720> um,

00:47:23.160 --> 00:47:30.880
and<00:47:23.455> because<00:47:23.750> they<00:47:24.045> don't<00:47:24.340> meet<00:47:24.635> the<00:47:24.930> threshold<00:47:25.225> for<00:47:25.520> a<00:47:25.815> medical<00:47:26.110> diagnosis<00:47:26.405> they<00:47:26.700> don't<00:47:26.995> know<00:47:27.290> what<00:47:27.585> to<00:47:27.880> do<00:47:28.175> with<00:47:28.470> them.<00:47:28.765> So<00:47:29.060> they're<00:47:29.355> just<00:47:29.650> calling<00:47:29.945> them<00:47:30.240> psychotic

00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:39.319
like<00:47:31.359> experiences.<00:47:32.359> So<00:47:32.599> that's<00:47:32.839> the<00:47:33.040> best<00:47:33.319> we're<00:47:33.520> going<00:47:33.720> to<00:47:34.000> get<00:47:34.520> from<00:47:35.079> the<00:47:35.240> materialist<00:47:36.040> medical<00:47:36.920> model,<00:47:37.920> but<00:47:38.200> obviously<00:47:38.680> it's<00:47:39.160> it's

00:47:39.319 --> 00:47:47.960
not<00:47:39.520> really<00:47:39.800> good<00:47:40.040> enough.<00:47:40.680> And<00:47:41.680> yeah,<00:47:41.839> it's<00:47:41.960> not<00:47:42.119> good<00:47:42.280> enough<00:47:42.440> to<00:47:42.559> challenge.<00:47:43.000> It's<00:47:43.200> kind<00:47:43.319> of<00:47:43.559> like<00:47:43.880> they<00:47:44.160> are<00:47:45.160> just<00:47:45.960> taking<00:47:46.319> these<00:47:46.599> experiences<00:47:47.319> and

00:47:47.960 --> 00:47:55.200
and<00:47:48.243> it's<00:47:48.526> the<00:47:48.810> discourse<00:47:49.093> thing<00:47:49.376> again.<00:47:49.659> It's<00:47:49.942> we're<00:47:50.226> going<00:47:50.509> to<00:47:50.792> name<00:47:51.075> you<00:47:51.358> in<00:47:51.642> our<00:47:51.925> terms<00:47:52.208> psychotic-like<00:47:52.491> because<00:47:52.774> we're<00:47:53.058> going<00:47:53.341> to<00:47:53.624> pull<00:47:53.907> you<00:47:54.190> in<00:47:54.474> and<00:47:54.757> we're<00:47:55.040> going

00:47:55.200 --> 00:48:03.440
to<00:47:55.567> make<00:47:55.935> sure<00:47:56.302> it's<00:47:56.669> something<00:47:57.036> associated<00:47:57.404> with<00:47:57.771> psychosis<00:47:58.138> rather<00:47:58.505> than<00:47:58.873> let's<00:47:59.240> explore<00:47:59.607> this,<00:47:59.975> let's<00:48:00.342> let's<00:48:00.709> look<00:48:01.076> at<00:48:01.444> this<00:48:01.811> in<00:48:02.178> a<00:48:02.545> different<00:48:02.913> way<00:48:03.280> through

00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:11.920
a<00:48:03.599> different<00:48:04.240> lens.<00:48:05.240> Even<00:48:05.440> the<00:48:05.599> label<00:48:06.040> alone<00:48:06.480> is<00:48:06.640> already<00:48:07.359> a<00:48:07.520> problem,<00:48:07.839> isn't<00:48:08.040> it,<00:48:08.680> for<00:48:08.839> kids?<00:48:09.800> If<00:48:10.040> if<00:48:10.559> if<00:48:10.920> a<00:48:11.079> child<00:48:11.359> is<00:48:11.520> told

00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:20.119
you<00:48:12.305> you<00:48:12.690> experience<00:48:13.074> psychotic-like<00:48:13.459> episodes,<00:48:13.844> right?<00:48:14.229> Oh<00:48:14.613> my<00:48:14.998> God,<00:48:15.383> I'm<00:48:15.768> a<00:48:16.152> weirdo,<00:48:16.537> right?<00:48:16.922> It<00:48:17.307> becomes<00:48:17.691> a<00:48:18.076> fact<00:48:18.461> in<00:48:18.846> the<00:48:19.230> world,<00:48:19.615> yeah.<00:48:20.000> And

00:48:20.119 --> 00:48:28.760
then<00:48:20.539> you<00:48:20.959> you<00:48:21.379> start<00:48:21.799> he<00:48:22.219> or<00:48:22.639> she<00:48:23.059> will<00:48:23.479> start<00:48:23.899> positioning<00:48:24.320> himself<00:48:24.740> or<00:48:25.160> seeing<00:48:25.580> in<00:48:26.000> this<00:48:26.420> in<00:48:26.840> this<00:48:27.260> light,<00:48:27.680> yeah,<00:48:28.100> yeah,<00:48:28.520> I'm

00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:37.480
psychotic<00:48:29.480> or<00:48:29.640> I'm<00:48:30.280> schizophrenic,<00:48:31.280> whatever,<00:48:32.160> yeah.<00:48:32.880> The<00:48:33.599> experts,<00:48:34.599> I'm<00:48:34.680> not<00:48:34.920> normal,<00:48:35.200> right?<00:48:35.440> Tell<00:48:35.599> me<00:48:35.839> that<00:48:36.240> even<00:48:36.480> though<00:48:36.680> my<00:48:36.920> experience

00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:45.760
and<00:48:37.680> my<00:48:38.280> intuition<00:48:39.280> and<00:48:39.559> and<00:48:40.160> you<00:48:40.240> know<00:48:40.440> my<00:48:40.599> feelings<00:48:41.040> about<00:48:41.359> this<00:48:41.559> may<00:48:41.800> be<00:48:42.359> telling<00:48:43.079> me<00:48:43.440> something<00:48:44.200> different,<00:48:45.200> because<00:48:45.559> the

00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:54.040
experts<00:48:46.400> and<00:48:46.599> and<00:48:46.839> society<00:48:47.400> in<00:48:47.640> general,<00:48:48.599> then<00:48:49.119> then<00:48:49.280> I'm<00:48:49.520> wrong.<00:48:50.000> And<00:48:51.000> yeah,<00:48:51.400> and<00:48:51.520> there's<00:48:51.760> probably<00:48:52.160> hundreds<00:48:52.480> and<00:48:52.640> hundreds<00:48:52.920> and<00:48:53.119> thousands<00:48:53.760> of

00:48:54.040 --> 00:49:02.359
individuals<00:48:54.640> going,<00:48:55.000> I<00:48:55.160> am<00:48:55.359> wrong.<00:48:55.720> And<00:48:55.880> if<00:48:56.040> they<00:48:56.240> come<00:48:56.520> together<00:48:56.960> in<00:48:57.079> some<00:48:57.319> way,<00:48:57.640> then<00:48:58.240> then<00:48:58.440> maybe<00:48:58.839> things<00:48:59.079> can<00:48:59.359> change.

00:49:02.359 --> 00:49:11.480
Hopefully<00:49:03.359> so.<00:49:03.640> I<00:49:03.720> was<00:49:05.240> wondering<00:49:06.240> to<00:49:06.559> what<00:49:06.799> metaphysical<00:49:07.760> model<00:49:08.760> of<00:49:09.280> nature<00:49:09.640> of<00:49:10.480> reality

00:49:11.480 --> 00:49:19.760
your<00:49:11.799> research<00:49:12.200> or<00:49:12.480> conclusions<00:49:13.000> from<00:49:13.160> your<00:49:13.359> research<00:49:13.920> point<00:49:14.319> towards<00:49:14.799> or<00:49:15.079> suggest?<00:49:16.160> Yeah,<00:49:17.160> so,<00:49:18.200> um,<00:49:19.200> I<00:49:19.319> think<00:49:19.599> what

00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:28.400
it<00:49:20.240> what<00:49:20.400> the<00:49:20.520> research<00:49:21.240> suggests<00:49:22.040> is<00:49:22.319> that,<00:49:22.799> um,<00:49:23.760> you<00:49:24.240> know,<00:49:25.240> the<00:49:25.359> brain<00:49:25.720> doesn't<00:49:26.200> produce<00:49:27.079> consciousness<00:49:27.920> or

00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:37.400
subjective<00:49:29.040> experience,<00:49:29.640> and<00:49:29.799> I<00:49:29.920> think<00:49:30.119> the<00:49:30.720> children's<00:49:31.319> experiences,<00:49:32.119> for<00:49:32.680> certainly<00:49:33.040> for<00:49:33.240> me,<00:49:33.640> for<00:49:33.799> me<00:49:33.960> show<00:49:34.400> that.<00:49:35.240> So,<00:49:36.400> um,

00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:47.400
I<00:49:37.599> land<00:49:37.920> on<00:49:38.280> analytical<00:49:39.040> idealism,<00:49:40.000> and<00:49:40.240> and<00:49:40.359> there<00:49:40.480> are<00:49:40.920> several<00:49:41.359> reasons<00:49:41.839> why<00:49:41.960> I<00:49:42.079> do<00:49:42.280> land<00:49:42.599> on<00:49:42.920> analytical<00:49:43.559> idealism<00:49:44.240> as<00:49:44.359> a<00:49:44.680> as<00:49:44.760> a<00:49:45.240> really<00:49:46.119> good

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philosophical<00:49:48.400> explanation<00:49:49.079> of<00:49:49.240> the<00:49:49.400> world<00:49:50.000> and<00:49:50.119> fairly<00:49:50.440> solid<00:49:50.960> actually<00:49:51.400> as<00:49:51.559> well,<00:49:52.359> yeah,<00:49:53.160> scientifically<00:49:53.720> speaking<00:49:54.040> solid.<00:49:54.599> This<00:49:54.720> is<00:49:54.839> one<00:49:54.960> of<00:49:55.160> the<00:49:55.319> reasons<00:49:56.000> so

00:49:56.359 --> 00:50:04.799
as<00:49:57.160> academic,<00:49:58.160> um,<00:49:58.760> writing<00:49:59.240> about<00:49:59.599> these<00:50:00.319> experiences,<00:50:01.319> you<00:50:01.520> want<00:50:01.920> something<00:50:02.440> that's<00:50:02.920> really<00:50:03.440> rigorous<00:50:04.440> and

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really<00:50:05.119> well<00:50:05.400> thought<00:50:05.799> out<00:50:06.359> and<00:50:06.720> you<00:50:06.839> know<00:50:07.720> has<00:50:08.200> a<00:50:08.559> superb<00:50:09.240> argument<00:50:09.960> against<00:50:10.839> something<00:50:11.240> that<00:50:11.359> you<00:50:11.520> are<00:50:11.880> against<00:50:12.160> and<00:50:12.359> that<00:50:12.599> you<00:50:12.720> know<00:50:12.920> you

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you're<00:50:13.359> trying<00:50:13.599> to<00:50:13.799> challenge.<00:50:14.640> And<00:50:14.760> I'm<00:50:14.920> not<00:50:15.079> a<00:50:15.559> philosopher,<00:50:16.799> um,<00:50:17.799> so<00:50:18.200> you<00:50:18.319> know<00:50:18.480> a<00:50:18.640> social<00:50:19.040> scientist<00:50:19.520> will<00:50:19.720> always<00:50:20.000> go<00:50:20.160> to<00:50:20.359> the<00:50:21.000> philosophy<00:50:22.000> and

00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:29.520
it's<00:50:22.280> a<00:50:22.359> bit<00:50:22.559> like<00:50:22.720> a<00:50:22.880> buffet<00:50:23.319> and<00:50:23.440> you'll<00:50:23.720> take<00:50:24.040> some<00:50:24.200> of<00:50:24.359> that<00:50:24.520> as<00:50:24.599> a<00:50:24.760> social<00:50:25.040> scientist,<00:50:25.440> take<00:50:25.640> some<00:50:25.760> of<00:50:25.960> that,<00:50:26.839> um.<00:50:27.160> The<00:50:27.280> other<00:50:27.520> reason<00:50:27.839> for<00:50:28.040> analytical<00:50:28.599> idealism<00:50:29.319> is

00:50:29.520 --> 00:50:38.400
when<00:50:29.720> I<00:50:30.000> first,<00:50:30.680> um,<00:50:31.280> read<00:50:32.280> some<00:50:32.480> of<00:50:32.640> that<00:50:32.880> philosophy<00:50:33.640> or<00:50:33.880> or<00:50:34.040> objective<00:50:34.599> idealism,<00:50:35.440> you<00:50:35.520> know,<00:50:35.760> whichever,<00:50:36.760> immediately<00:50:37.480> I<00:50:37.599> thought

00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:45.880
my<00:50:38.673> I<00:50:38.945> thought<00:50:39.218> about<00:50:39.490> my<00:50:39.763> own<00:50:40.036> experience<00:50:40.308> and<00:50:40.581> and<00:50:40.853> I<00:50:41.126> thought,<00:50:41.399> you<00:50:41.671> know,<00:50:41.944> when<00:50:42.216> I<00:50:42.489> said<00:50:42.761> as<00:50:43.034> a<00:50:43.307> child,<00:50:43.579> you<00:50:43.852> mean<00:50:44.124> your<00:50:44.397> own<00:50:44.670> extrasensory?<00:50:44.942> Absolutely.<00:50:45.215> So,<00:50:45.487> you<00:50:45.760> know,

00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:54.520
when<00:50:46.000> I<00:50:46.119> said<00:50:46.319> earlier<00:50:46.799> that,<00:50:47.200> um,<00:50:47.920> it<00:50:48.119> it<00:50:48.240> was<00:50:48.359> a<00:50:48.640> case<00:50:49.079> of<00:50:50.040> reading<00:50:50.799> spiritual<00:50:51.440> teachers<00:50:52.160> but<00:50:52.440> then<00:50:52.799> going<00:50:53.520> to<00:50:53.760> look<00:50:53.960> at

00:50:54.520 --> 00:51:02.760
you<00:50:54.640> know<00:50:55.119> what<00:50:55.280> what's<00:50:55.520> out<00:50:55.760> there<00:50:56.040> scientific,<00:50:56.799> cuz<00:50:56.960> I<00:50:57.079> do<00:50:57.240> have<00:50:57.359> a<00:50:57.559> scientific<00:50:58.079> mind<00:50:58.319> as<00:50:58.440> well<00:50:58.640> and<00:50:59.040> and<00:50:59.200> I<00:50:59.440> like<00:51:00.079> that<00:51:00.520> and<00:51:01.079> rational<00:51:01.599> logical.<00:51:02.599> I

00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:11.040
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00:51:11.040 --> 00:51:19.520
experiences<00:51:11.599> in<00:51:11.720> a<00:51:12.000> really,<00:51:13.000> um,<00:51:14.000> effective<00:51:15.000> and<00:51:15.359> academic<00:51:15.920> way,<00:51:16.839> and<00:51:17.160> so<00:51:17.640> again,<00:51:18.160> you<00:51:18.319> know,<00:51:18.720> it<00:51:18.839> ticks<00:51:19.280> that

00:51:19.520 --> 00:51:28.079
box<00:51:19.920> too,<00:51:20.760> but<00:51:20.920> it's<00:51:21.079> certainly<00:51:21.400> for<00:51:21.599> my<00:51:21.720> own<00:51:22.000> experience,<00:51:22.599> I<00:51:22.799> kind<00:51:22.960> of<00:51:23.200> gasped<00:51:23.720> when<00:51:23.880> I<00:51:24.000> first<00:51:24.280> read<00:51:24.480> it<00:51:24.599> and<00:51:24.720> I<00:51:24.880> thought,<00:51:25.520> wow,<00:51:26.799> this<00:51:27.079> makes<00:51:27.480> so<00:51:27.760> much

00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:36.799
sense.<00:51:28.680> This<00:51:29.160> makes<00:51:29.440> sense<00:51:29.720> about<00:51:30.000> my<00:51:30.200> own<00:51:30.599> experience<00:51:31.319> in<00:51:31.520> terms<00:51:32.119> of,<00:51:33.119> you<00:51:33.240> know,<00:51:33.440> for<00:51:33.680> analytical<00:51:34.960> idealism,<00:51:35.960> the<00:51:36.280> idea

00:51:36.799 --> 00:51:46.079
is<00:51:37.000> that<00:51:37.240> reality<00:51:37.799> itself<00:51:38.280> is<00:51:38.520> this<00:51:38.920> field<00:51:39.400> of<00:51:41.040> subjectivity,<00:51:42.040> and<00:51:42.280> that<00:51:43.000> our<00:51:43.359> little<00:51:43.799> sense<00:51:44.079> of<00:51:44.319> self,<00:51:44.760> for<00:51:45.079> example,

00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:54.599
is<00:51:46.359> actually,<00:51:46.960> actually<00:51:47.559> in<00:51:47.720> itself<00:51:48.240> an<00:51:48.599> experience.<00:51:49.599> It's<00:51:49.799> not<00:51:50.079> the<00:51:51.119> experiencer,<00:51:52.119> and<00:51:52.240> it<00:51:52.359> was<00:51:52.640> that<00:51:52.880> for<00:51:53.079> me<00:51:53.359> that<00:51:53.559> was,<00:51:53.720> thought,<00:51:54.319> that's

00:51:54.599 --> 00:52:01.359
it,<00:51:55.200> that's<00:51:55.400> where<00:51:55.640> I<00:51:55.920> land.<00:51:56.160> And<00:51:56.280> that<00:51:56.599> doesn't<00:51:56.760> mean<00:51:56.880> that<00:51:57.040> everyone<00:51:57.319> else<00:51:57.640> has<00:51:57.760> to<00:51:57.920> land<00:51:58.240> on<00:51:58.480> that,<00:51:58.720> 'cause<00:51:59.119> you<00:51:59.200> know,<00:51:59.400> there's,<00:51:59.599> there's<00:51:59.880> many<00:52:00.200> different<00:52:00.559> philosophical

00:52:01.359 --> 00:52:10.480
ideas<00:52:01.829> about<00:52:02.298> the<00:52:02.768> world,<00:52:03.237> uh,<00:52:03.707> that<00:52:04.176> the<00:52:04.646> position,<00:52:05.115> you<00:52:05.585> know,<00:52:06.054> consciousness-first,<00:52:06.524> really<00:52:06.993> in<00:52:07.463> that<00:52:07.932> way<00:52:08.402> as<00:52:08.871> the<00:52:09.341> ontic<00:52:09.810> principle,<00:52:10.280> but

00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:19.480
for<00:52:10.680> me,<00:52:10.880> it<00:52:11.000> just<00:52:11.280> completely<00:52:11.799> resonated.<00:52:12.760> And,<00:52:12.920> and<00:52:13.079> again,<00:52:13.280> as<00:52:13.400> a<00:52:13.559> social<00:52:14.200> scientist,<00:52:15.200> as<00:52:15.400> someone<00:52:15.839> who's<00:52:16.160> always<00:52:16.599> looked<00:52:16.920> at<00:52:17.160> language<00:52:17.559> and<00:52:18.040> identity,<00:52:19.040> now

00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:27.680
consciousness<00:52:20.040> and<00:52:20.319> self,<00:52:21.000> kind<00:52:21.119> of<00:52:21.440> moving,<00:52:22.440> you<00:52:22.559> know,<00:52:23.040> a<00:52:23.160> bit<00:52:23.400> deeper<00:52:23.839> with<00:52:24.079> this<00:52:24.520> on<00:52:24.640> my<00:52:24.799> own<00:52:25.079> academic<00:52:25.559> journey,<00:52:26.799> um,<00:52:27.480> yeah,

00:52:27.680 --> 00:52:36.960
it's<00:52:27.960> incredible<00:52:28.520> explanatory<00:52:30.000> power.<00:52:31.000> Yeah,<00:52:32.880> interesting.<00:52:33.880> Well,<00:52:34.240> in<00:52:34.480> addition<00:52:34.799> to<00:52:34.920> being<00:52:35.119> a<00:52:35.280> social<00:52:35.960> scientist,

00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:45.559
uh,<00:52:37.160> you<00:52:37.400> describe<00:52:37.880> yourself<00:52:38.280> as<00:52:38.400> a<00:52:38.559> student<00:52:38.920> of<00:52:39.160> philosophy,<00:52:40.119> a<00:52:40.319> student,<00:52:40.920> absolutely,<00:52:41.799> still<00:52:42.040> a<00:52:42.280> student,<00:52:43.280> yeah,<00:52:43.680> yeah.<00:52:44.200> How<00:52:44.400> does<00:52:44.599> your<00:52:45.240> understanding

00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:54.240
of<00:52:45.799> philosophy<00:52:46.280> support<00:52:46.640> your<00:52:46.920> research,<00:52:47.920> which<00:52:48.040> is<00:52:48.280> actually<00:52:48.559> social<00:52:48.880> sciences,<00:52:49.280> of<00:52:49.400> course,<00:52:49.839> yeah,<00:52:50.359> yeah.<00:52:51.040> So<00:52:51.359> again,<00:52:52.359> um,<00:52:53.359> so<00:52:53.920> well,

00:52:54.240 --> 00:53:02.720
soci-<00:52:54.720> social<00:52:55.160> research<00:52:55.920> and,<00:52:56.200> and<00:52:56.559> areas<00:52:57.240> of<00:52:57.720> social<00:52:58.160> science,<00:52:58.760> such<00:52:58.960> as<00:52:59.160> critical<00:52:59.720> childhood<00:53:00.359> studies,<00:53:01.359> have,<00:53:01.680> have<00:53:02.040> kind<00:53:02.200> of<00:53:02.400> always

00:53:02.720 --> 00:53:11.200
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00:53:11.200 --> 00:53:19.520
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00:53:19.520 --> 00:53:27.720
this<00:53:19.680> is<00:53:19.920> about,<00:53:20.400> but<00:53:20.640> there's<00:53:20.839> still<00:53:21.160> at<00:53:21.359> the<00:53:21.599> level<00:53:21.880> of<00:53:22.119> the<00:53:22.960> epistemic<00:53:23.680> level,<00:53:24.119> of<00:53:24.280> the<00:53:24.480> epistemological<00:53:25.480> level,<00:53:25.880> about<00:53:26.559> that<00:53:26.960> it's<00:53:27.079> all<00:53:27.280> about<00:53:27.520> the

00:53:27.720 --> 00:53:36.359
relationality<00:53:28.720> of<00:53:28.920> how<00:53:29.160> things<00:53:29.480> are<00:53:29.799> related<00:53:30.240> to<00:53:30.480> each<00:53:30.680> other,<00:53:31.359> and<00:53:31.480> it<00:53:31.680> still<00:53:31.960> doesn't<00:53:32.359> go<00:53:32.880> quite<00:53:33.200> into<00:53:33.559> that,<00:53:34.119> yeah,<00:53:34.319> but<00:53:34.520> what<00:53:34.680> is<00:53:35.119> it,<00:53:36.119> but

00:53:36.359 --> 00:53:44.559
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00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:52.760
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00:53:52.760 --> 00:54:02.040
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00:54:02.040 --> 00:54:10.359
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00:54:10.359 --> 00:54:19.280
kind<00:54:10.559> of<00:54:11.040> epistemological<00:54:12.040> or<00:54:12.559> ontological<00:54:13.440> truth,<00:54:14.319> you<00:54:14.440> know?<00:54:14.720> And,<00:54:14.920> and<00:54:15.040> if<00:54:15.200> we,<00:54:15.440> if<00:54:15.559> we<00:54:15.680> want<00:54:15.880> to<00:54:16.280> privilege<00:54:16.680> and<00:54:16.920> prioritize<00:54:17.920> what<00:54:18.160> people<00:54:18.480> say,

00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:27.720
we<00:54:19.440> have<00:54:19.559> to<00:54:19.640> have<00:54:19.760> a<00:54:19.880> really<00:54:20.240> strong<00:54:20.559> argument<00:54:21.000> for<00:54:21.280> that.<00:54:22.119> So<00:54:22.640> does<00:54:22.799> that<00:54:22.960> make<00:54:23.119> sense?<00:54:23.280> So<00:54:23.400> it's<00:54:23.520> like,<00:54:23.799> part<00:54:24.040> of<00:54:24.319> this<00:54:24.599> is,<00:54:24.880> is<00:54:25.040> trying<00:54:25.359> to<00:54:25.559> say,<00:54:25.920> well,<00:54:27.040> we<00:54:27.200> need<00:54:27.400> to

00:54:27.720 --> 00:54:36.680
ask<00:54:28.160> first,<00:54:28.920> who<00:54:29.160> am<00:54:29.359> I,<00:54:29.960> instead<00:54:30.240> of<00:54:30.400> us<00:54:30.760> again<00:54:31.480> assuming.<00:54:32.480> So<00:54:33.400> for<00:54:33.599> me,<00:54:33.839> ontology<00:54:34.720> is<00:54:35.160> really,<00:54:35.599> really<00:54:35.960> important

00:54:36.680 --> 00:54:45.240
in<00:54:36.880> social<00:54:37.640> sciences,<00:54:38.640> um,<00:54:38.960> and,<00:54:39.240> and<00:54:39.520> even<00:54:39.880> in<00:54:40.160> social<00:54:40.680> research,<00:54:41.400> which<00:54:41.640> is<00:54:41.760> a<00:54:41.960> branch<00:54:42.359> of<00:54:42.559> social<00:54:43.000> science<00:54:43.920> that<00:54:44.240> works<00:54:44.760> really

00:54:45.240 --> 00:54:55.079
directly<00:54:45.760> in,<00:54:46.280> in<00:54:46.800> the<00:54:47.320> life-world,<00:54:47.840> Habermas<00:54:48.360> called<00:54:48.880> it<00:54:49.400> the<00:54:49.919> life-world,<00:54:50.439> you<00:54:50.959> know,<00:54:51.479> with<00:54:51.999> everyday<00:54:52.519> people<00:54:53.039> to<00:54:53.559> affect<00:54:54.079> change,

00:54:55.079 --> 00:55:03.440
because<00:54:55.400> what's<00:54:55.680> the<00:54:55.880> point<00:54:56.160> if<00:54:56.480> we're<00:54:56.640> not<00:54:57.200> changing<00:54:58.000> anything,<00:54:59.000> you<00:54:59.119> know?<00:54:59.319> We<00:54:59.400> can<00:54:59.599> talk<00:54:59.960> about<00:55:00.559> these<00:55:00.839> matters<00:55:01.280> all<00:55:01.559> day,<00:55:02.280> and<00:55:02.440> we<00:55:02.599> can<00:55:02.839> say,<00:55:03.200> well,

00:55:03.440 --> 00:55:11.960
is<00:55:03.680> reality<00:55:04.119> like<00:55:04.520> this,<00:55:04.760> or<00:55:04.960> is<00:55:05.040> it<00:55:05.280> like<00:55:05.640> this?<00:55:06.520> And<00:55:06.640> it<00:55:06.760> is<00:55:06.960> so,<00:55:07.240> so<00:55:07.559> important<00:55:08.200> because<00:55:09.040> that's<00:55:09.319> the<00:55:09.520> thing<00:55:09.760> that<00:55:10.000> can<00:55:10.319> instill<00:55:10.920> change,<00:55:11.799> but

00:55:11.960 --> 00:55:20.200
we<00:55:12.160> also,<00:55:13.160> and<00:55:13.240> we're<00:55:13.400> doing<00:55:13.599> a<00:55:13.720> lot<00:55:13.880> of<00:55:14.079> that<00:55:14.240> in<00:55:14.359> the<00:55:14.559> academic<00:55:15.079> realms,<00:55:16.040> but<00:55:16.319> people<00:55:16.599> on<00:55:16.799> the<00:55:17.000> ground,<00:55:18.000> it's<00:55:18.240> not<00:55:18.440> reaching<00:55:18.920> them<00:55:19.200> whatsoever,<00:55:19.920> you<00:55:20.040> know,

00:55:20.200 --> 00:55:28.520
they're<00:55:20.480> really,<00:55:20.799> really<00:55:21.119> suffering,<00:55:22.000> and<00:55:22.160> they're<00:55:22.440> really,<00:55:22.799> really<00:55:23.119> suffering<00:55:24.079> because<00:55:24.280> we're<00:55:24.440> living<00:55:24.799> in<00:55:24.920> the<00:55:25.160> material<00:55:25.760> world,<00:55:26.680> and<00:55:26.839> these<00:55:26.960> are<00:55:27.240> individual<00:55:27.880> biological

00:55:28.520 --> 00:55:37.119
machines,<00:55:29.000> and<00:55:29.160> they<00:55:29.280> are<00:55:29.480> tracked<00:55:30.200> as<00:55:30.440> such<00:55:31.440> now.<00:55:31.599> So<00:55:31.799> it<00:55:32.000> has<00:55:32.160> to<00:55:33.440> change,<00:55:34.440> you<00:55:34.599> know<00:55:34.760> what<00:55:34.920> my<00:55:35.119> biggest<00:55:35.599> problem<00:55:35.880> is<00:55:36.039> with<00:55:36.240> materialism?<00:55:36.960> I'll

00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:45.920
tell<00:55:37.671> you<00:55:38.223> what,<00:55:38.775> um,<00:55:39.327> is<00:55:39.879> the<00:55:40.431> following:<00:55:40.983> so<00:55:41.536> people<00:55:42.088> who<00:55:42.640> will<00:55:43.192> say,<00:55:43.744> for<00:55:44.296> example,<00:55:44.848> extra-sensory<00:55:45.400> experiences

00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:54.920
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00:55:54.920 --> 00:56:03.039
make<00:55:55.920> is<00:55:56.079> not,<00:55:56.319> not<00:55:56.480> conscious<00:55:56.880> in<00:55:57.000> my<00:55:57.280> view,<00:55:59.599> right?<00:56:00.599> And<00:56:00.799> there<00:56:00.920> is<00:56:01.039> an<00:56:01.200> ontological<00:56:01.799> assumption<00:56:02.319> there<00:56:02.760> that<00:56:02.920> we

00:56:03.039 --> 00:56:11.559
are<00:56:03.240> a<00:56:03.319> machine,<00:56:04.160> yeah,<00:56:04.640> yeah,<00:56:04.799> and<00:56:04.960> that<00:56:05.160> drives<00:56:05.680> the<00:56:05.880> rest<00:56:06.079> of<00:56:06.240> the<00:56:06.400> questions<00:56:06.760> and<00:56:07.039> answers<00:56:07.520> and,<00:56:07.720> and<00:56:07.839> the<00:56:08.039> rest<00:56:08.200> of<00:56:08.359> it.<00:56:08.839> So<00:56:09.359> if<00:56:09.520> you<00:56:09.720> want<00:56:09.920> to<00:56:10.079> be<00:56:10.400> materialist,<00:56:11.400> at

00:56:11.559 --> 00:56:19.920
least<00:56:11.885> be<00:56:12.212> a<00:56:12.538> conscious<00:56:12.865> materialist,<00:56:13.191> accept,<00:56:13.518> accept<00:56:13.844> that,<00:56:14.171> right?<00:56:14.497> And<00:56:14.823> not<00:56:15.150> just<00:56:15.476> go<00:56:15.803> through<00:56:16.129> medical<00:56:16.456> school,<00:56:16.782> and<00:56:17.108> this<00:56:17.435> is<00:56:17.761> how<00:56:18.088> we<00:56:18.414> were<00:56:18.741> taught,<00:56:19.067> and<00:56:19.394> that,<00:56:19.720> that's

00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:26.960
what<00:56:20.119> reality<00:56:20.720> is,<00:56:21.079> and<00:56:21.200> nobody<00:56:21.559> questions<00:56:21.960> it.<00:56:22.160> We<00:56:22.280> just<00:56:22.559> run<00:56:22.880> with<00:56:23.000> it,<00:56:23.240> right?<00:56:23.559> We<00:56:23.680> don't<00:56:23.880> have<00:56:24.039> time<00:56:24.240> to<00:56:24.400> question<00:56:24.720> it,<00:56:25.039> especially<00:56:25.400> when<00:56:25.480> you're<00:56:25.599> in<00:56:25.680> a<00:56:25.799> job<00:56:26.000> like<00:56:26.480> that.

00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:34.599
It's<00:56:27.160> like<00:56:27.559> the<00:56:27.720> grind,<00:56:28.160> the<00:56:28.319> wheel,<00:56:28.720> it's<00:56:28.960> that,<00:56:29.200> it's<00:56:29.400> that,<00:56:29.559> it's<00:56:29.760> that,<00:56:29.880> it's<00:56:30.079> that.<00:56:30.200> And<00:56:30.319> I<00:56:30.400> think<00:56:30.559> that's<00:56:30.720> a<00:56:30.920> reflection<00:56:31.520> of,<00:56:31.920> of<00:56:32.119> the<00:56:32.359> mess<00:56:32.680> that<00:56:32.799> we're<00:56:33.000> in,<00:56:33.400> as<00:56:33.599> well<00:56:34.200> as

00:56:34.599 --> 00:56:44.000
we,<00:56:35.199> we're<00:56:35.799> not<00:56:36.399> given<00:56:36.999> time<00:56:37.599> to<00:56:38.199> contemplate.<00:56:38.800> We're<00:56:39.400> in<00:56:40.000> this<00:56:40.600> very<00:56:41.200> fast-paced,<00:56:41.800> competitive,<00:56:42.400> economically-driven<00:56:43.000> society

00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:53.280
where<00:56:44.920> we<00:56:45.079> are<00:56:45.240> not<00:56:45.480> afforded<00:56:46.160> any<00:56:46.480> space<00:56:46.839> to<00:56:47.079> sit<00:56:47.440> back<00:56:48.039> and<00:56:48.319> reflect<00:56:48.839> and<00:56:49.039> think,<00:56:49.760> well,<00:56:50.480> actually,<00:56:51.480> is<00:56:51.640> it<00:56:51.960> like<00:56:52.280> that?

00:56:53.280 --> 00:57:01.680
And<00:56:53.520> I<00:56:53.599> don't<00:56:53.720> know<00:56:53.799> if<00:56:53.880> you've<00:56:54.119> noticed<00:56:54.640> that,<00:56:54.839> because<00:56:55.119> I,<00:56:55.720> I<00:56:55.799> think<00:56:55.920> that's<00:56:56.319> part<00:56:56.520> of<00:56:56.680> the<00:56:56.880> problem<00:56:57.599> as<00:56:57.920> well.<00:56:58.920> I<00:56:59.000> was<00:56:59.200> lucky<00:56:59.520> enough,<00:56:59.760> I<00:56:59.920> had<00:57:00.160> philosophy<00:57:00.680> at<00:57:00.839> university,

00:57:01.680 --> 00:57:10.240
even<00:57:01.960> though<00:57:02.720> at<00:57:02.920> that<00:57:03.079> time<00:57:03.280> I<00:57:03.359> thought,<00:57:03.680> what,<00:57:03.960> what<00:57:04.079> a<00:57:04.240> nuisance.<00:57:04.880> I<00:57:05.039> just<00:57:05.240> have<00:57:07.039> to,<00:57:08.039> honestly,<00:57:08.920> sorry,<00:57:09.920> sorry

00:57:10.240 --> 00:57:17.400
to<00:57:10.440> all<00:57:10.680> philosophers<00:57:11.280> out<00:57:11.559> there.<00:57:12.440> No,<00:57:12.599> but<00:57:12.799> you<00:57:12.920> do,<00:57:13.119> you<00:57:13.280> always,<00:57:13.520> you<00:57:13.640> start<00:57:13.799> to<00:57:13.920> think,<00:57:14.079> well,<00:57:14.240> so<00:57:14.640> what?<00:57:14.920> Because<00:57:15.480> that's<00:57:15.680> all<00:57:15.920> good<00:57:16.079> and<00:57:16.240> well,<00:57:16.520> but<00:57:16.680> when<00:57:16.799> you,<00:57:17.079> when<00:57:17.200> you're

00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:25.160
working<00:57:17.799> with<00:57:18.079> people<00:57:18.440> and<00:57:18.559> you<00:57:18.760> see,<00:57:19.079> and<00:57:19.200> you're<00:57:19.480> very<00:57:19.839> up<00:57:20.119> close<00:57:20.400> to<00:57:20.599> that<00:57:21.079> suffering,<00:57:22.079> we<00:57:22.480> understand<00:57:22.680> that<00:57:22.880> position<00:57:23.200> of,<00:57:23.480> well,<00:57:23.680> so<00:57:23.960> are,<00:57:24.160> but<00:57:24.280> it<00:57:24.359> is<00:57:24.599> important.<00:57:25.079> And

00:57:25.160 --> 00:57:31.799
I<00:57:25.240> say<00:57:25.400> that's<00:57:25.599> what,<00:57:25.839> that,<00:57:26.200> that's<00:57:26.280> what<00:57:26.359> I<00:57:26.400> was<00:57:26.520> trying<00:57:26.680> to<00:57:26.839> say<00:57:27.240> earlier,<00:57:28.240> yeah.<00:57:28.440> I<00:57:28.520> would<00:57:28.640> say<00:57:28.839> everybody<00:57:29.200> should<00:57:29.400> have<00:57:29.520> a<00:57:29.680> philosophy<00:57:30.200> course,<00:57:30.400> absolutely,<00:57:31.359> or<00:57:31.480> at<00:57:31.599> least

00:57:31.799 --> 00:57:40.359
a<00:57:32.159> minimum<00:57:32.519> basic,<00:57:32.879> so<00:57:33.239> that<00:57:33.599> at<00:57:33.959> least<00:57:34.319> they<00:57:34.679> can<00:57:35.039> position<00:57:35.399> that<00:57:35.759> model.<00:57:36.119> Where<00:57:36.479> does<00:57:36.839> it<00:57:37.199> belong?<00:57:37.559> Is<00:57:37.919> materialism,<00:57:38.279> why,<00:57:38.639> what<00:57:38.999> other<00:57:39.359> alternatives?<00:57:39.719> And,<00:57:40.079> and

00:57:40.359 --> 00:57:48.280
we<00:57:40.480> are<00:57:40.559> not<00:57:40.760> doing<00:57:41.039> that,<00:57:41.240> I<00:57:41.359> think,<00:57:42.280> and<00:57:42.400> we<00:57:42.480> don't<00:57:42.640> do<00:57:42.799> it<00:57:42.920> in<00:57:43.039> schools<00:57:43.559> either<00:57:43.960> with<00:57:44.160> younger<00:57:44.440> children.<00:57:44.760> So<00:57:45.000> again,<00:57:45.280> we,<00:57:45.480> we've<00:57:45.680> just,<00:57:46.160> um,<00:57:46.760> we've<00:57:46.960> just<00:57:47.119> wrote<00:57:47.680> a<00:57:47.880> paper

00:57:48.280 --> 00:57:56.720
actually<00:57:48.731> about<00:57:49.182> this<00:57:49.633> project<00:57:50.084> where,<00:57:50.536> um,<00:57:50.987> we,<00:57:51.438> we<00:57:51.889> went<00:57:52.340> into<00:57:52.791> school,<00:57:53.242> it<00:57:53.693> was<00:57:54.144> actually<00:57:54.596> with,<00:57:55.047> with<00:57:55.498> Fred<00:57:55.949> Matser,<00:57:56.400> and

00:57:56.720 --> 00:58:04.440
the<00:57:56.880> Essentia,<00:57:57.440> this<00:57:57.520> was<00:57:57.640> a<00:57:57.760> bit<00:57:57.880> of<00:57:57.960> a<00:57:58.119> project<00:57:58.400> we<00:57:58.520> did<00:57:58.680> in<00:57:58.839> 2022<00:57:59.760> or<00:57:59.920> 2023,<00:58:00.920> but<00:58:01.079> we've<00:58:01.359> actually,<00:58:01.960> we've<00:58:02.280> analyzed<00:58:02.760> the<00:58:02.880> data,<00:58:03.319> we've<00:58:03.480> looked<00:58:03.680> at<00:58:03.760> what<00:58:03.920> happened,<00:58:04.280> we've

00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:13.160
wrote<00:58:04.640> a<00:58:04.839> paper<00:58:05.079> on<00:58:05.319> this,<00:58:05.520> which<00:58:05.640> is<00:58:05.839> really<00:58:06.119> good.<00:58:06.920> In<00:58:07.039> a<00:58:07.280> nutshell,<00:58:08.280> the<00:58:08.440> school<00:58:08.880> now<00:58:09.160> have<00:58:09.319> changed<00:58:09.760> some<00:58:09.920> of<00:58:10.079> their<00:58:10.319> curriculum<00:58:11.079> to<00:58:11.280> allow<00:58:11.720> children<00:58:12.280> to<00:58:12.440> do

00:58:13.160 --> 00:58:21.359
philosophy.<00:58:14.160> But<00:58:14.319> there's<00:58:14.480> a<00:58:14.640> difference,<00:58:15.039> isn't<00:58:15.319> there,<00:58:15.559> between<00:58:16.039> that<00:58:16.240> taught<00:58:16.760> philosophy,<00:58:17.760> so<00:58:18.280> what<00:58:18.440> you<00:58:18.559> might<00:58:18.799> learn<00:58:19.039> at<00:58:19.240> university<00:58:19.920> in<00:58:20.119> that<00:58:20.319> kind<00:58:20.440> of<00:58:20.680> curriculum

00:58:21.359 --> 00:58:29.079
where<00:58:21.480> it<00:58:21.559> will<00:58:21.799> be,<00:58:22.359> no,<00:58:22.599> we're<00:58:22.839> going<00:58:23.000> to<00:58:23.200> choose<00:58:23.559> what<00:58:23.839> philosophy,<00:58:24.400> 'cause<00:58:24.520> that's<00:58:24.680> the<00:58:24.799> other<00:58:25.000> thing,<00:58:25.200> isn't<00:58:25.400> it?<00:58:26.160> Going<00:58:26.240> to<00:58:26.359> tell<00:58:26.559> you<00:58:26.799> what<00:58:27.119> philosophy<00:58:27.680> you<00:58:27.920> have<00:58:28.039> to<00:58:28.240> learn,

00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:37.559
the<00:58:29.799> play,<00:58:30.799> exactly.<00:58:31.280> And<00:58:31.400> if<00:58:31.520> it<00:58:31.640> doesn't<00:58:31.920> meet<00:58:32.240> our<00:58:32.559> schema<00:58:33.200> of<00:58:33.440> materialism<00:58:34.200> or<00:58:34.400> whatever<00:58:34.760> it<00:58:34.920> is,<00:58:35.160> you<00:58:35.280> know,<00:58:35.559> of,<00:58:35.760> of<00:58:35.839> our<00:58:36.240> curriculum,<00:58:37.240> but

00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:45.799
um,<00:58:37.960> the<00:58:38.079> wonderful<00:58:38.520> thing<00:58:38.720> about<00:58:38.960> children<00:58:39.319> is<00:58:39.480> that<00:58:39.599> they<00:58:39.720> are<00:58:39.960> natural<00:58:40.880> philosophers,<00:58:41.880> you<00:58:42.039> know?<00:58:42.599> And<00:58:42.880> so<00:58:43.119> it's<00:58:43.280> not<00:58:43.520> even<00:58:43.799> about<00:58:44.119> teaching<00:58:44.720> philosophy,<00:58:45.720> you

00:58:45.799 --> 00:58:55.200
know,<00:58:46.000> with<00:58:46.119> the<00:58:46.240> younger<00:58:46.559> children,<00:58:46.960> it's<00:58:47.160> about<00:58:47.559> again,<00:58:48.359> affording<00:58:48.880> them<00:58:49.039> a<00:58:49.280> space<00:58:50.200> just<00:58:50.440> to<00:58:50.680> be<00:58:51.359> themselves,<00:58:51.760> to<00:58:51.960> be<00:58:52.960> curious<00:58:53.720> and<00:58:54.200> creative

00:58:55.200 --> 00:59:04.079
and<00:58:55.560> ask<00:58:55.920> those<00:58:56.280> really<00:58:56.640> big<00:58:57.000> questions<00:58:57.360> that,<00:58:57.720> that<00:58:58.080> adults<00:58:58.440> will<00:58:58.800> always<00:58:59.160> run<00:58:59.520> away<00:58:59.880> from,<00:59:00.240> you<00:59:00.600> know?<00:59:00.960> As<00:59:01.320> a<00:59:01.680> parent,<00:59:02.040> when<00:59:02.400> your<00:59:02.760> six-year-old<00:59:03.120> child<00:59:03.480> asks

00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:12.559
you,<00:59:04.396> you<00:59:04.713> know,<00:59:05.030> what<00:59:05.347> will<00:59:05.664> happen<00:59:05.981> when<00:59:06.297> you<00:59:06.614> die?<00:59:06.931> Where<00:59:07.248> will<00:59:07.565> you<00:59:07.882> go<00:59:08.199> when<00:59:08.516> you<00:59:08.833> die?<00:59:09.150> What<00:59:09.467> is<00:59:09.784> dying?<00:59:10.101> You<00:59:10.417> know,<00:59:10.734> all<00:59:11.051> these<00:59:11.368> that<00:59:11.685> we<00:59:12.002> find<00:59:12.319> again

00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:18.760
really<00:59:12.799> uncomfortable<00:59:13.480> because<00:59:13.680> we<00:59:13.799> don't<00:59:13.920> know<00:59:14.119> how<00:59:14.240> to<00:59:14.440> answer<00:59:14.799> them.<00:59:15.200> And<00:59:15.359> do<00:59:15.480> we<00:59:15.599> know,<00:59:15.960> we,<00:59:16.119> I<00:59:16.200> mean,<00:59:16.520> we<00:59:16.640> can't<00:59:16.880> answer<00:59:17.160> to<00:59:17.280> ourselves,<00:59:17.720> right?<00:59:18.039> We<00:59:18.160> can't<00:59:18.359> answer<00:59:18.599> to

00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:27.039
ourselves.<00:59:19.400> But<00:59:19.720> again,<00:59:20.119> we<00:59:20.280> don't<00:59:20.599> really<00:59:20.920> have<00:59:21.200> any<00:59:21.440> kind<00:59:21.760> of<00:59:22.760> alternative<00:59:23.599> narratives<00:59:24.319> to<00:59:24.559> even<00:59:24.880> begin,<00:59:25.799> 'cause<00:59:26.160> the<00:59:26.240> other<00:59:26.400> thing,<00:59:26.520> as<00:59:26.599> a<00:59:26.760> parent,

00:59:27.039 --> 00:59:35.760
if<00:59:27.160> you<00:59:27.280> start<00:59:27.520> to<00:59:27.760> tell<00:59:28.039> your<00:59:28.680> child<00:59:29.680> maybe<00:59:29.960> an<00:59:30.119> alternative<00:59:31.000> narrative,<00:59:32.000> you're<00:59:32.240> always<00:59:32.559> feared<00:59:33.160> then<00:59:33.400> that<00:59:33.559> your<00:59:33.760> child<00:59:34.160> might<00:59:34.359> be<00:59:34.520> a<00:59:34.720> social<00:59:35.119> outcast

00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:45.599
if<00:59:35.960> they<00:59:36.240> have<00:59:36.720> these,<00:59:37.720> these<00:59:37.960> ideas.<00:59:38.400> So<00:59:38.680> parents<00:59:39.160> have<00:59:39.440> all<00:59:39.799> these<00:59:40.240> fears<00:59:41.240> because,<00:59:41.640> again,<00:59:41.880> of,<00:59:42.160> of<00:59:42.319> the<00:59:42.520> structure<00:59:43.039> that<00:59:43.240> this<00:59:43.359> is<00:59:43.640> happening<00:59:44.599> in.

00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:57.359
Yeah,<00:59:45.839> pressure<00:59:46.200> to<00:59:46.400> conform,<00:59:46.960> especially<00:59:47.400> in<00:59:47.559> the<00:59:47.880> school<00:59:48.200> age,<00:59:48.920> it's<00:59:49.920> extreme,<00:59:50.720> yeah,<00:59:51.160> the<00:59:51.319> teenagers<00:59:52.200> most<00:59:52.480> so.<00:59:52.960> It's<00:59:53.240> very,<00:59:53.559> very<00:59:54.039> difficult.

00:59:57.359 --> 01:00:05.559
Um,<00:59:57.839> I<00:59:57.960> was<00:59:58.559> wondering,<01:00:00.319> um,<01:00:01.319> what<01:00:01.440> are<01:00:01.640> the<01:00:01.799> main<01:00:02.000> findings<01:00:02.440> and<01:00:02.640> conclusions<01:00:03.160> in<01:00:03.319> your<01:00:03.960> research,<01:00:04.960> uh,<01:00:05.160> how<01:00:05.400> they

01:00:05.559 --> 01:00:14.119
can,<01:00:06.400> if<01:00:06.480> you<01:00:06.640> just<01:00:06.839> kind<01:00:06.960> of<01:00:07.799> a<01:00:07.960> couple<01:00:08.200> of<01:00:08.480> points<01:00:09.480> you<01:00:09.640> could<01:00:10.559> summarize,<01:00:11.559> and<01:00:11.760> how<01:00:12.079> do<01:00:12.240> they<01:00:12.440> help<01:00:12.680> us<01:00:13.160> better<01:00:13.760> understand

01:00:14.119 --> 01:00:23.400
consciousness?<01:00:15.119> And<01:00:15.319> maybe<01:00:15.920> what<01:00:16.039> is<01:00:16.240> consciousness<01:00:16.760> for<01:00:17.280> you?<01:00:18.280> We,<01:00:18.440> we<01:00:18.599> still<01:00:19.200> can't<01:00:20.079> define<01:00:20.400> it,<01:00:20.799> of<01:00:20.920> course,<01:00:21.119> we<01:00:21.319> can't<01:00:21.799> universally,<01:00:22.799> yeah.

01:00:23.400 --> 01:00:31.920
And<01:00:23.520> I<01:00:23.599> mean,<01:00:24.559> that's<01:00:24.799> the<01:00:25.000> issue,<01:00:25.319> isn't<01:00:25.559> it,<01:00:25.680> with<01:00:26.000> consciousness,<01:00:26.640> in<01:00:26.839> terms<01:00:27.240> of,<01:00:28.480> um,<01:00:29.480> it's,<01:00:29.720> it's<01:00:29.880> such<01:00:30.039> a<01:00:30.240> mystery,<01:00:30.799> and<01:00:31.000> people<01:00:31.359> define<01:00:31.760> it

01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:40.280
in<01:00:32.119> so<01:00:32.359> many<01:00:32.680> different<01:00:33.119> ways.<01:00:33.799> I<01:00:33.960> think<01:00:34.280> was<01:00:34.400> it<01:00:34.559> Galen<01:00:34.920> Strawson<01:00:35.520> who,<01:00:35.839> who<01:00:36.039> refers<01:00:36.400> to<01:00:36.599> the<01:00:36.760> festival<01:00:37.200> of<01:00:37.920> misunderstandings<01:00:38.920> when<01:00:39.079> we<01:00:39.240> talk<01:00:39.480> about<01:00:39.760> things<01:00:40.039> like

01:00:40.280 --> 01:00:49.359
consciousness<01:00:41.000> and<01:00:41.839> subjectivity,<01:00:43.359> um,<01:00:44.359> but,<01:00:44.680> um,<01:00:45.200> you<01:00:45.319> know,<01:00:45.520> it's,<01:00:45.720> it's<01:00:45.839> the<01:00:46.000> sea<01:00:46.280> in<01:00:46.400> which<01:00:46.559> we<01:00:46.680> all<01:00:46.920> swim<01:00:47.319> as<01:00:47.520> well,<01:00:48.359> so

01:00:49.359 --> 01:00:56.799
especially<01:00:49.760> when<01:00:49.880> we're<01:00:50.079> researching<01:00:50.559> with<01:00:50.760> children,<01:00:51.200> we<01:00:51.319> don't<01:00:51.720> go<01:00:51.880> in<01:00:52.039> with<01:00:52.160> a<01:00:52.359> definition.<01:00:52.920> In<01:00:53.079> fact,<01:00:53.240> we're<01:00:53.400> going<01:00:53.720> from<01:00:53.960> the<01:00:54.160> position<01:00:54.520> of<01:00:54.680> not<01:00:54.920> knowing,<01:00:56.039> of<01:00:56.480> you

01:00:56.799 --> 01:01:05.119
okay,<01:00:57.079> this<01:00:57.200> is<01:00:57.319> a<01:00:57.480> mystery,<01:00:58.359> but<01:00:58.520> it's<01:00:58.680> always<01:00:59.039> about<01:00:59.880> that<01:01:00.079> kind<01:01:00.240> of<01:01:00.480> phenomenal<01:01:01.079> consciousness.<01:01:01.760> So<01:01:01.920> what<01:01:02.079> is<01:01:02.200> it<01:01:02.359> to<01:01:02.520> be<01:01:02.880> like<01:01:03.680> you?<01:01:04.319> What<01:01:04.480> is<01:01:04.599> it<01:01:04.720> to<01:01:04.880> be

01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:13.599
like<01:01:05.359> me?<01:01:06.000> It's<01:01:06.200> that<01:01:06.400> kind<01:01:06.559> of<01:01:06.720> what<01:01:06.880> is<01:01:07.000> it<01:01:07.119> to<01:01:07.280> be<01:01:07.559> like,<01:01:07.839> and<01:01:08.000> that's<01:01:08.280> the<01:01:08.480> starting<01:01:09.000> point<01:01:09.280> for<01:01:09.480> us.<01:01:09.720> It's<01:01:10.039> very,<01:01:10.359> very,<01:01:10.680> very<01:01:11.400> simple,<01:01:12.400> um,<01:01:13.039> and<01:01:13.359> that

01:01:13.599 --> 01:01:23.079
question,<01:01:13.960> what<01:01:14.079> is<01:01:14.200> it<01:01:14.400> like<01:01:14.640> to<01:01:14.799> be<01:01:15.039> me,<01:01:15.520> or<01:01:15.760> who<01:01:16.000> am<01:01:16.200> I?<01:01:16.599> Again,<01:01:16.799> it's<01:01:17.000> that,<01:01:17.440> I<01:01:17.480> mean,<01:01:17.680> who<01:01:17.880> am<01:01:18.000> I<01:01:18.200> is<01:01:18.440> one<01:01:18.559> of<01:01:18.680> the<01:01:18.960> biggest<01:01:19.599> philosophical<01:01:20.599> questions<01:01:21.559> across<01:01:22.079> history,

01:01:23.079 --> 01:01:31.839
and<01:01:23.240> we're<01:01:23.480> taking<01:01:23.880> that<01:01:24.039> and<01:01:24.240> asking,<01:01:24.799> and<01:01:25.039> asking<01:01:25.359> children<01:01:25.680> to,<01:01:25.920> to<01:01:26.079> ask<01:01:26.520> themselves<01:01:26.880> that<01:01:27.160> question<01:01:27.640> in<01:01:27.799> a<01:01:28.000> sense.<01:01:28.880> So,<01:01:29.480> um,<01:01:29.839> it<01:01:29.960> is<01:01:30.160> from<01:01:30.359> the<01:01:30.520> mystery<01:01:30.960> position<01:01:31.599> for

01:01:31.839 --> 01:01:40.039
me,<01:01:32.176> I<01:01:32.512> think<01:01:32.849> it's,<01:01:33.186> and<01:01:33.523> I<01:01:33.859> shouldn't<01:01:34.196> define<01:01:34.533> consciousness.<01:01:34.869> I'm<01:01:35.206> not<01:01:35.543> defining<01:01:35.880> consciousness.<01:01:36.216> Let<01:01:36.553> me<01:01:36.890> just<01:01:37.226> put<01:01:37.563> that,<01:01:37.900> I<01:01:38.236> refuse<01:01:38.573> to<01:01:38.910> define<01:01:39.247> cons-<01:01:39.583> I'm<01:01:39.920> not

01:01:40.039 --> 01:01:48.720
I'm<01:01:40.499> not<01:01:40.959> going<01:01:41.419> to<01:01:41.879> define<01:01:42.339> consciousness,<01:01:42.799> but<01:01:43.259> I<01:01:43.719> can't<01:01:44.179> escape,<01:01:44.639> um,<01:01:45.099> from<01:01:45.559> my<01:01:46.019> own<01:01:46.479> experiences,<01:01:46.939> from<01:01:47.399> the<01:01:47.859> philosophical<01:01:48.319> position

01:01:48.720 --> 01:01:58.079
that<01:01:49.275> I<01:01:49.830> land<01:01:50.385> on,<01:01:50.940> from<01:01:51.495> children's<01:01:52.050> experiences,<01:01:52.605> um,<01:01:53.159> whatever<01:01:53.714> this<01:01:54.269> is,<01:01:54.824> it<01:01:55.379> seems,<01:01:55.934> seems<01:01:56.489> to<01:01:57.044> have,<01:01:57.599> yeah,

01:01:58.079 --> 01:02:07.119
some,<01:01:58.319> some<01:01:58.559> very<01:01:58.880> tight<01:01:59.760> relationality,<01:02:00.599> I'll<01:02:00.760> use<01:02:00.920> the<01:02:01.079> social<01:02:01.400> science<01:02:01.720> word,<01:02:02.480> with,<01:02:02.760> with<01:02:03.000> self,<01:02:03.559> with,<01:02:03.760> with<01:02:04.000> subjectivity,<01:02:04.960> with,<01:02:05.200> with<01:02:05.359> the<01:02:05.640> experience,<01:02:06.559> uh,

01:02:07.119 --> 01:02:16.359
an<01:02:07.839> experience.<01:02:08.839> So,<01:02:09.359> um,<01:02:10.079> those<01:02:10.240> would<01:02:10.440> be<01:02:10.599> the<01:02:10.760> key<01:02:11.000> words<01:02:11.319> that<01:02:11.480> I<01:02:11.559> would<01:02:12.319> associate<01:02:13.160> with,<01:02:13.640> with<01:02:14.920> consciousness,<01:02:15.920> um.

01:02:16.359 --> 01:02:24.680
There<01:02:16.480> was<01:02:16.640> another<01:02:17.000> question,<01:02:17.440> sorry,<01:02:17.720> how<01:02:17.839> your<01:02:18.039> research<01:02:18.480> conclusions<01:02:18.960> and<01:02:19.160> findings<01:02:19.720> help<01:02:20.000> us<01:02:20.319> better<01:02:21.079> understand<01:02:21.319> consciousness?<01:02:22.200> Yeah,<01:02:22.799> yeah,<01:02:23.720> all<01:02:24.279> I<01:02:24.359> mean

01:02:24.680 --> 01:02:33.079
again,<01:02:25.279> how<01:02:25.680> to<01:02:26.039> me,<01:02:26.160> how<01:02:26.279> it<01:02:26.400> is<01:02:26.520> to<01:02:26.680> be<01:02:26.839> you,<01:02:27.200> how<01:02:27.319> it<01:02:27.400> is<01:02:27.520> to<01:02:27.640> be<01:02:27.799> me,<01:02:27.960> how<01:02:28.079> it<01:02:28.160> is<01:02:28.279> to<01:02:28.400> be<01:02:28.559> you,<01:02:28.880> yeah,<01:02:29.240> yeah.<01:02:29.839> Well,<01:02:30.000> in<01:02:30.160> terms<01:02:30.440> of<01:02:30.680> self,<01:02:31.279> I<01:02:31.359> think<01:02:31.599> what<01:02:31.760> children<01:02:32.160> show<01:02:32.760> is

01:02:33.079 --> 01:02:42.079
that<01:02:33.400> we're<01:02:33.599> certainly<01:02:34.079> not<01:02:34.279> this<01:02:34.480> small<01:02:35.559> individual<01:02:36.720> little<01:02:37.720> biological<01:02:38.480> self,<01:02:39.079> that<01:02:39.240> there<01:02:39.400> seems<01:02:39.680> to<01:02:39.839> be<01:02:40.119> these<01:02:40.319> layers<01:02:40.799> to<01:02:41.079> self

01:02:42.079 --> 01:02:50.480
almost,<01:02:43.079> um,<01:02:43.720> that<01:02:43.920> we<01:02:44.039> don't<01:02:44.400> pay<01:02:44.640> attention<01:02:45.319> to,<01:02:46.319> um,<01:02:46.559> especially<01:02:47.039> in<01:02:47.279> mainstream,<01:02:48.200> especially<01:02:48.640> in<01:02:48.799> schools,<01:02:49.400> especially,<01:02:50.319> and

01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:58.880
it's<01:02:50.868> really<01:02:51.256> important<01:02:51.644> because<01:02:52.032> they're<01:02:52.420> very<01:02:52.808> much<01:02:53.196> connected<01:02:53.584> to<01:02:53.972> experience.<01:02:54.360> So<01:02:54.748> for<01:02:55.136> examp-<01:02:55.524> like<01:02:55.912> we,<01:02:56.300> I<01:02:56.688> said<01:02:57.076> earlier<01:02:57.464> around<01:02:57.852> telepathic<01:02:58.240> experiences

01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:07.240
and<01:02:59.119> how<01:02:59.720> children<01:03:00.400> then<01:03:00.680> have<01:03:00.799> a<01:03:01.000> sense<01:03:01.359> that<01:03:01.640> they<01:03:01.760> are<01:03:02.359> themselves<01:03:02.839> and<01:03:03.119> the<01:03:03.240> other<01:03:03.480> person<01:03:04.079> at<01:03:04.200> the<01:03:04.359> same<01:03:04.680> time.<01:03:05.400> So<01:03:05.640> it's<01:03:05.839> kind<01:03:06.000> of,<01:03:06.559> you<01:03:06.720> know,<01:03:07.160> I

01:03:07.240 --> 01:03:15.640
think<01:03:07.359> we're<01:03:07.520> learning<01:03:07.960> about<01:03:08.319> that<01:03:08.760> relationship<01:03:09.599> between<01:03:10.119> experience<01:03:11.000> and<01:03:11.319> self,<01:03:11.960> if,<01:03:12.400> if<01:03:12.559> there<01:03:12.720> is<01:03:12.839> a<01:03:13.039> relationship,<01:03:13.920> or<01:03:14.119> is<01:03:14.240> it<01:03:14.400> just<01:03:14.640> kind<01:03:14.799> of<01:03:15.279> one

01:03:15.640 --> 01:03:23.760
thing?<01:03:15.920> And<01:03:16.119> it's,<01:03:16.440> it's<01:03:17.000> really,<01:03:18.000> that's<01:03:18.240> philosophical<01:03:18.920> territory,<01:03:19.359> and<01:03:19.480> I,<01:03:20.000> I'm<01:03:20.079> not<01:03:20.240> going<01:03:20.359> to<01:03:20.480> go<01:03:20.720> there<01:03:20.960> right<01:03:21.160> now<01:03:21.520> because,<01:03:22.279> uh,<01:03:23.279> but<01:03:23.440> I<01:03:23.520> think<01:03:23.640> we're

01:03:23.760 --> 01:03:32.480
learning<01:03:24.079> about<01:03:24.319> self,<01:03:24.799> and,<01:03:25.000> and<01:03:25.119> we're<01:03:25.240> learning<01:03:25.559> about,<01:03:25.880> about<01:03:26.599> these<01:03:26.880> experiences.<01:03:27.680> I<01:03:27.799> think<01:03:28.000> can<01:03:28.160> let<01:03:28.400> us<01:03:29.119> know<01:03:29.440> more<01:03:29.760> about<01:03:30.480> consciousness,<01:03:31.480> even<01:03:31.880> though

01:03:32.480 --> 01:03:41.520
mundane<01:03:33.359> subjective<01:03:33.960> experience<01:03:34.400> is<01:03:34.520> a<01:03:34.680> huge<01:03:34.920> mystery.<01:03:35.359> So<01:03:35.799> we<01:03:35.960> still<01:03:36.160> don't<01:03:36.440> have<01:03:36.680> any<01:03:37.119> scientific<01:03:38.039> explanations<01:03:39.039> how<01:03:39.400> the<01:03:39.559> brain<01:03:39.960> produces<01:03:40.599> those.

01:03:41.520 --> 01:03:50.839
So,<01:03:41.916> you<01:03:42.312> know,<01:03:42.708> even<01:03:43.105> that's<01:03:43.501> a<01:03:43.897> mystery.<01:03:44.293> But<01:03:44.689> these<01:03:45.085> extra-sensory<01:03:45.481> experiences,<01:03:45.878> and<01:03:46.274> especially<01:03:46.670> in<01:03:47.066> how,<01:03:47.462> how<01:03:47.858> common<01:03:48.254> they<01:03:48.651> are<01:03:49.047> in<01:03:49.443> children,<01:03:49.839> um,

01:03:50.839 --> 01:03:59.240
I<01:03:50.960> think<01:03:51.160> they<01:03:51.359> can<01:03:51.559> teach<01:03:51.880> us<01:03:53.240> about,<01:03:54.240> maybe<01:03:54.520> about<01:03:54.839> time<01:03:55.039> and<01:03:55.319> space,<01:03:56.480> you<01:03:56.599> know,<01:03:56.839> that,<01:03:57.000> that<01:03:57.160> might<01:03:57.319> be<01:03:57.520> interesting,<01:03:58.119> you<01:03:58.240> know,<01:03:58.440> these<01:03:58.720> kinds<01:03:58.960> of

01:03:59.240 --> 01:04:07.680
phenomena<01:03:59.720> that<01:03:59.839> we're<01:04:00.000> all<01:04:00.200> thinking<01:04:00.599> about,<01:04:01.400> you<01:04:01.520> know,<01:04:02.160> in<01:04:02.279> relation<01:04:02.640> to<01:04:03.119> reality.<01:04:04.119> I<01:04:04.200> think<01:04:04.440> children<01:04:04.760> are<01:04:04.880> going<01:04:05.000> to<01:04:05.119> be<01:04:05.279> really<01:04:05.559> helpful<01:04:06.079> there,<01:04:07.039> you<01:04:07.160> know,<01:04:07.559> in

01:04:07.680 --> 01:04:16.400
terms<01:04:07.960> of<01:04:08.279> how<01:04:08.599> they,<01:04:09.079> their<01:04:09.279> ways<01:04:09.480> of<01:04:09.640> being<01:04:09.920> in<01:04:10.039> the<01:04:10.160> world,<01:04:10.440> and<01:04:10.640> how<01:04:10.799> they<01:04:11.000> experience<01:04:11.760> things<01:04:12.039> like<01:04:12.359> time<01:04:13.039> and<01:04:13.720> self,<01:04:14.720> and<01:04:15.680> yeah,

01:04:16.400 --> 01:04:25.440
that<01:04:16.903> will<01:04:17.405> be<01:04:17.908> helpful<01:04:18.410> for<01:04:18.913> us.<01:04:19.415> Is<01:04:19.918> there<01:04:20.420> new<01:04:20.923> light<01:04:21.425> that<01:04:21.928> is<01:04:22.430> shed<01:04:22.933> on<01:04:23.435> the<01:04:23.938> body-mind<01:04:24.440> problem?

01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:33.839
Well,<01:04:25.762> I<01:04:26.083> don't<01:04:26.405> think<01:04:26.726> that<01:04:27.048> my<01:04:27.370> research<01:04:27.691> can,<01:04:28.013> can<01:04:28.334> shed<01:04:28.656> much<01:04:28.978> light<01:04:29.299> on<01:04:29.621> the<01:04:29.942> body-mind<01:04:30.264> problem,<01:04:30.586> which<01:04:30.907> is<01:04:31.229> a<01:04:31.550> really<01:04:31.872> big<01:04:32.194> problem<01:04:32.515> that<01:04:32.837> cuts<01:04:33.158> across<01:04:33.480> many

01:04:33.839 --> 01:04:42.279
fields<01:04:34.239> and,<01:04:34.639> and<01:04:35.039> many<01:04:35.439> areas<01:04:35.839> of<01:04:36.239> inquiry.<01:04:36.639> But<01:04:37.039> essentially,<01:04:37.439> it's<01:04:37.839> the<01:04:38.239> question,<01:04:38.639> is,<01:04:39.039> how<01:04:39.439> does<01:04:39.839> the<01:04:40.239> mind<01:04:40.639> interact<01:04:41.039> on<01:04:41.439> the<01:04:41.839> body?

01:04:42.279 --> 01:04:50.319
How,<01:04:42.559> how<01:04:42.720> might<01:04:42.920> the<01:04:43.039> body<01:04:43.319> interact<01:04:43.760> on<01:04:43.960> the<01:04:44.079> mind?<01:04:44.720> Are<01:04:44.960> these<01:04:45.160> two<01:04:45.480> separate<01:04:45.920> things?<01:04:46.279> Are<01:04:46.520> they,<01:04:47.240> are<01:04:47.359> they<01:04:47.520> the<01:04:47.680> same<01:04:47.920> thing?<01:04:48.160> Are<01:04:48.319> they<01:04:48.480> similar<01:04:48.920> things?<01:04:49.200> And<01:04:49.839> again,

01:04:50.319 --> 01:04:59.319
it's,<01:04:50.667> it's<01:04:51.015> tying<01:04:51.362> into<01:04:51.710> that<01:04:52.058> mystery<01:04:52.406> of,<01:04:52.754> of,<01:04:53.102> it's<01:04:53.449> the<01:04:53.797> ontological<01:04:54.145> questions<01:04:54.493> again,<01:04:54.841> you<01:04:55.189> know,<01:04:55.536> what<01:04:55.884> is,<01:04:56.232> what<01:04:56.580> is<01:04:56.928> mind<01:04:57.276> and<01:04:57.623> what<01:04:57.971> is<01:04:58.319> matter?

01:04:59.319 --> 01:05:07.799
Um,<01:05:00.160> I<01:05:00.279> think<01:05:00.520> that<01:05:00.680> the<01:05:00.880> research<01:05:01.440> with<01:05:01.680> children<01:05:02.279> raises<01:05:03.240> these<01:05:03.880> questions,<01:05:05.119> um,<01:05:06.119> if<01:05:06.440> even<01:05:06.640> if<01:05:06.760> we<01:05:06.920> think<01:05:07.160> outside<01:05:07.640> of

01:05:07.799 --> 01:05:17.000
my<01:05:08.000> own<01:05:08.319> research<01:05:08.839> and<01:05:09.039> think<01:05:09.720> to<01:05:10.599> Dr.<01:05:10.960> Ian<01:05:11.319> Stevenson,<01:05:12.119> who<01:05:12.279> did<01:05:12.680> loads<01:05:13.039> of<01:05:13.279> research<01:05:14.000> on<01:05:14.240> children<01:05:14.599> and<01:05:15.599> reincarnation,<01:05:16.599> and

01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:25.799
that's<01:05:17.458> really<01:05:17.916> interesting<01:05:18.373> because<01:05:18.831> he<01:05:19.289> looked<01:05:19.747> at<01:05:20.204> the<01:05:20.662> phenomena<01:05:21.120> of<01:05:21.578> the<01:05:22.036> birthmarks.<01:05:22.493> So,<01:05:22.951> um,<01:05:23.409> children<01:05:23.867> who<01:05:24.324> had<01:05:24.782> significant<01:05:25.240> birth

01:05:25.799 --> 01:05:34.319
marks<01:05:26.370> or<01:05:26.942> birth,<01:05:27.513> uh,<01:05:28.085> defects<01:05:28.656> were<01:05:29.228> reporting<01:05:29.799> these<01:05:30.370> past-life<01:05:30.942> memories,<01:05:31.513> um,<01:05:32.085> and<01:05:32.656> when<01:05:33.228> the<01:05:33.799> researchers

01:05:34.319 --> 01:05:42.680
went<01:05:34.694> through<01:05:35.068> the<01:05:35.443> records,<01:05:35.817> their<01:05:36.192> birthmarks<01:05:36.566> corresponded<01:05:36.941> with<01:05:37.315> the<01:05:37.690> injury<01:05:38.064> that<01:05:38.439> they<01:05:38.814> sustained.<01:05:39.188> It<01:05:39.563> was,<01:05:39.937> it<01:05:40.312> was<01:05:40.686> kind<01:05:41.061> of<01:05:41.435> how<01:05:41.810> they<01:05:42.184> died.<01:05:42.559> How

01:05:42.680 --> 01:05:51.240
on<01:05:42.880> Earth<01:05:43.240> can<01:05:43.520> a<01:05:43.680> child<01:05:44.000> who<01:05:44.200> remembers<01:05:44.680> a<01:05:44.960> past<01:05:45.680> life,<01:05:47.079> um,<01:05:48.079> carry<01:05:48.760> as<01:05:48.960> well<01:05:49.440> some<01:05:49.799> kind<01:05:50.119> of,<01:05:51.119> you

01:05:51.240 --> 01:06:00.440
know,<01:05:51.440> mark<01:05:51.839> on<01:05:52.039> the,<01:05:52.599> on<01:05:52.760> the,<01:05:53.039> on<01:05:53.200> the<01:05:53.359> body?<01:05:54.000> How,<01:05:54.319> how<01:05:54.520> does<01:05:54.799> that<01:05:55.079> work,<01:05:55.880> you<01:05:56.039> know?<01:05:56.760> There<01:05:57.039> has<01:05:57.200> to<01:05:57.440> be<01:05:57.960> some<01:05:58.960> very<01:05:59.440> strong

01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:09.200
correlation<01:06:00.977> between<01:06:01.515> the<01:06:02.052> mind<01:06:02.590> and<01:06:03.127> body<01:06:03.665> for<01:06:04.202> that<01:06:04.740> to<01:06:05.277> work.<01:06:05.814> I<01:06:06.352> have<01:06:06.889> some<01:06:07.427> ideas<01:06:07.964> about<01:06:08.502> that,<01:06:09.039> and

01:06:09.200 --> 01:06:17.839
then,<01:06:09.359> you<01:06:09.480> know,<01:06:10.000> again,<01:06:10.440> when<01:06:10.559> we<01:06:10.720> think<01:06:10.920> about<01:06:11.440> reincarnation,<01:06:12.440> that,<01:06:12.640> that's<01:06:12.920> interesting<01:06:13.640> too,<01:06:14.640> in<01:06:14.760> and<01:06:14.920> of<01:06:15.119> itself.<01:06:15.400> And<01:06:15.520> I<01:06:15.599> know<01:06:15.720> we've<01:06:15.880> not<01:06:16.000> really<01:06:16.200> touched<01:06:16.480> on<01:06:16.839> reincarnation,

01:06:17.839 --> 01:06:26.720
but,<01:06:18.680> um,<01:06:19.039> for<01:06:19.240> some<01:06:19.599> researchers<01:06:20.359> who<01:06:20.480> look<01:06:20.640> at<01:06:20.799> reincarnation,<01:06:21.559> it's<01:06:21.720> an<01:06:21.960> idea<01:06:22.359> that<01:06:22.559> souls<01:06:23.079> might<01:06:23.319> move<01:06:23.720> to<01:06:23.960> different<01:06:24.400> bodies.<01:06:25.279> But<01:06:25.440> if,<01:06:25.559> if<01:06:25.640> we're<01:06:25.799> thinking<01:06:26.200> about

01:06:26.720 --> 01:06:35.119
consciousness<01:06:27.240> or<01:06:27.520> the<01:06:27.640> mind<01:06:27.920> in<01:06:28.160> different<01:06:28.640> ways,<01:06:29.440> and<01:06:29.680> just<01:06:29.960> about<01:06:30.160> the<01:06:30.319> collective<01:06:30.839> consciousness<01:06:31.440> before,<01:06:31.799> for<01:06:32.160> example,<01:06:33.160> you<01:06:33.279> know,<01:06:34.200> is<01:06:34.319> it<01:06:34.440> more<01:06:34.640> a<01:06:34.880> case

01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:44.240
that<01:06:35.574> children<01:06:36.029> again<01:06:36.483> are<01:06:36.938> tapping<01:06:37.393> into<01:06:37.848> something<01:06:38.303> that's<01:06:38.757> already<01:06:39.212> there?<01:06:39.667> I<01:06:40.122> was<01:06:40.576> wondering,<01:06:41.031> you,<01:06:41.486> you've<01:06:41.941> done<01:06:42.396> some<01:06:42.850> color-cross<01:06:43.305> research<01:06:43.760> with

01:06:44.240 --> 01:06:52.319
uh,<01:06:44.599> with,<01:06:45.079> uh,<01:06:45.880> Professor<01:06:46.240> Sarah<01:06:46.920> Durston<01:06:47.920> here.<01:06:48.480> Could<01:06:48.640> you<01:06:48.760> tell<01:06:48.920> a<01:06:49.000> few<01:06:49.200> words<01:06:49.400> about<01:06:49.720> that?<01:06:50.039> Yes,<01:06:50.200> sure.<01:06:51.000> So,<01:06:51.440> um,<01:06:51.799> a<01:06:51.960> color,<01:06:52.240> the

01:06:52.319 --> 01:07:01.160
color-cross<01:06:52.703> is<01:06:53.086> a<01:06:53.470> large<01:06:53.854> inflatable<01:06:54.237> tube-like<01:06:54.621> structure<01:06:55.005> that,<01:06:55.388> uh,<01:06:55.772> Sarah<01:06:56.156> has<01:06:56.540> been<01:06:56.923> using<01:06:57.307> for<01:06:57.691> quite<01:06:58.074> some<01:06:58.458> time<01:06:58.842> now<01:06:59.225> to<01:06:59.609> do<01:06:59.993> some<01:07:00.376> research<01:07:00.760> around

01:07:01.160 --> 01:07:10.200
mental<01:07:01.520> health,<01:07:02.319> and<01:07:02.599> it's<01:07:02.760> been<01:07:02.920> used<01:07:03.200> across<01:07:03.559> the<01:07:03.960> Netherlands.<01:07:04.960> And,<01:07:05.440> um,<01:07:05.680> a<01:07:05.839> couple<01:07:06.079> of<01:07:06.240> years<01:07:06.480> ago,<01:07:06.839> Sarah<01:07:07.279> and<01:07:07.440> I<01:07:07.680> started<01:07:08.039> to<01:07:08.240> have<01:07:08.400> some<01:07:08.839> conversations<01:07:09.839> around

01:07:10.200 --> 01:07:18.839
much<01:07:10.359> of<01:07:10.520> the<01:07:10.640> things<01:07:10.880> that<01:07:11.039> you<01:07:11.160> and<01:07:11.359> I<01:07:11.839> have,<01:07:12.079> have<01:07:12.240> talked<01:07:12.559> about<01:07:12.839> in<01:07:13.000> this,<01:07:13.279> in<01:07:13.440> this<01:07:14.079> interview,<01:07:15.200> um.<01:07:16.200> Sarah's<01:07:16.799> very,<01:07:17.400> her<01:07:17.559> work's<01:07:17.880> very<01:07:18.119> interesting<01:07:18.640> because

01:07:18.839 --> 01:07:27.480
she's<01:07:19.239> a<01:07:19.639> neuroscientist,<01:07:20.039> and<01:07:20.439> the<01:07:20.839> reason<01:07:21.239> why<01:07:21.639> her<01:07:22.039> work<01:07:22.439> struck<01:07:22.839> me<01:07:23.240> was<01:07:23.640> because<01:07:24.040> she<01:07:24.440> was<01:07:24.840> one<01:07:25.240> of<01:07:25.640> the<01:07:26.040> first<01:07:26.440> child<01:07:26.840> psychiatrists<01:07:27.240> and

01:07:27.480 --> 01:07:35.880
neuroscientists<01:07:28.480> who<01:07:28.640> were,<01:07:29.359> who<01:07:29.480> was<01:07:29.680> saying,<01:07:30.359> well,<01:07:30.599> actually,<01:07:31.200> you<01:07:31.319> know,<01:07:31.640> what<01:07:31.799> is<01:07:32.119> ADHD,<01:07:33.039> for<01:07:33.240> example,<01:07:34.119> or,<01:07:34.440> or<01:07:34.720> autism?<01:07:35.400> Because<01:07:35.680> we've

01:07:35.880 --> 01:07:44.400
never<01:07:36.160> found<01:07:36.839> the<01:07:37.079> biological<01:07:38.079> imprint<01:07:38.880> within<01:07:39.160> the<01:07:39.599> brain.<01:07:40.599> Now,<01:07:40.880> that<01:07:41.000> is<01:07:41.160> really<01:07:41.599> important<01:07:42.240> because,<01:07:42.599> again,<01:07:43.279> um,<01:07:43.720> many<01:07:44.079> children

01:07:44.400 --> 01:07:52.920
are<01:07:44.599> being<01:07:44.880> diagnosed<01:07:45.480> with<01:07:45.640> autism<01:07:46.079> or<01:07:46.640> ADHD<01:07:47.640> under<01:07:47.920> the<01:07:48.160> premise<01:07:48.599> that<01:07:48.760> it's<01:07:48.880> an<01:07:49.079> actual<01:07:49.640> thing,<01:07:50.559> or<01:07:50.799> that<01:07:50.960> it's,<01:07:51.319> that<01:07:51.440> it's<01:07:51.680> actually<01:07:52.200> there,<01:07:52.680> and

01:07:52.920 --> 01:08:01.520
and<01:07:53.231> you<01:07:53.542> know,<01:07:53.852> some<01:07:54.163> children<01:07:54.474> can<01:07:54.785> be<01:07:55.095> medicated<01:07:55.406> too.<01:07:55.717> So,<01:07:56.028> I,<01:07:56.338> I<01:07:56.649> read<01:07:56.960> that<01:07:57.271> and<01:07:57.582> I<01:07:57.892> got<01:07:58.203> very,<01:07:58.514> very<01:07:58.825> excited<01:07:59.135> and<01:07:59.446> contacted<01:07:59.757> Sarah,<01:08:00.068> and,<01:08:00.378> and<01:08:00.689> she<01:08:01.000> became

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in<01:09:46.759> each<01:09:47.120> color<01:09:47.520> tube<01:09:48.520> um<01:09:48.759> you<01:09:48.880> know<01:09:49.040> the<01:09:49.120> children<01:09:49.480> were<01:09:49.719> going<01:09:50.000> in<01:09:50.319> and<01:09:50.440> it<01:09:50.520> was<01:09:50.679> no<01:09:50.880> longer<01:09:51.159> a<01:09:51.319> color<01:09:51.719> tube<01:09:52.640> you<01:09:52.759> know<01:09:53.080> it<01:09:53.239> was<01:09:53.679> I'm<01:09:53.839> in<01:09:54.159> space<01:09:54.560> and

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it<01:21:27.360> needs<01:21:27.560> to<01:21:27.719> come<01:21:28.000> bottom<01:21:28.360> up<01:21:28.639> as<01:21:28.840> well<01:21:29.719> it<01:21:29.880> needs<01:21:30.040> to<01:21:30.199> come<01:21:30.360> bottom<01:21:30.679> up<01:21:30.960> so<01:21:31.400> the<01:21:31.560> more<01:21:31.960> that<01:21:32.360> we<01:21:33.080> everyday<01:21:33.560> people<01:21:33.920> recognize<01:21:34.800> and<01:21:35.280> and

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question<01:21:36.360> and<01:21:36.520> be<01:21:36.840> philosophers<01:21:37.520> ourselves<01:21:38.480> you<01:21:38.600> know<01:21:38.800> and<01:21:39.040> every<01:21:39.320> small<01:21:39.760> change<01:21:40.159> that<01:21:40.360> we<01:21:40.639> make<01:21:41.120> the<01:21:41.600> I<01:21:41.800> think<01:21:42.080> will<01:21:42.480> will<01:21:42.679> also<01:21:43.040> feed<01:21:43.360> into<01:21:43.679> that

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process<01:21:44.400> of<01:21:44.639> change<01:21:45.520> that<01:21:45.719> that's<01:21:45.960> much

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needed<01:21:51.199> so<01:21:51.400> the<01:21:51.560> title<01:21:51.880> of<01:21:51.960> your<01:21:52.199> book<01:21:52.880> is<01:21:53.400> children's<01:21:53.920> unexplained<01:21:54.719> experiences<01:21:55.360> in<01:21:55.480> a<01:21:55.639> postmaterialist<01:21:56.520> world<01:21:57.320> what<01:21:57.520> children<01:21:57.960> can<01:21:58.159> teach<01:21:58.400> us

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about<01:21:58.960> the<01:21:59.120> mystery<01:21:59.600> of<01:21:59.800> being<01:22:00.880> human<01:22:01.880> um<01:22:02.239> could<01:22:02.400> you<01:22:02.600> say<01:22:02.760> a<01:22:02.840> few<01:22:03.000> words<01:22:03.199> about<01:22:03.400> your<01:22:03.560> book<01:22:03.840> and<01:22:04.120> who<01:22:04.360> might<01:22:04.520> it<01:22:04.679> be<01:22:04.840> useful<01:22:05.239> for<01:22:06.120> yeah<01:22:07.120> the

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hope<01:22:07.639> is<01:22:07.760> that<01:22:07.960> it<01:22:08.080> would<01:22:08.280> be<01:22:08.440> useful<01:22:08.960> for<01:22:09.440> anyone<01:22:09.960> who<01:22:10.159> is<01:22:10.360> with<01:22:10.679> children<01:22:11.360> whether<01:22:11.600> you<01:22:11.760> are<01:22:11.920> a<01:22:12.120> parent<01:22:12.520> or<01:22:12.679> a<01:22:12.920> carer<01:22:13.880> a<01:22:14.040> teacher<01:22:15.040> someone<01:22:15.360> who

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works<01:22:15.840> with<01:22:16.080> children<01:22:17.040> and<01:22:17.480> the<01:22:17.719> offering<01:22:18.239> of<01:22:18.440> the<01:22:18.639> book<01:22:19.239> is<01:22:19.560> just<01:22:20.239> um<01:22:20.639> a<01:22:20.880> different<01:22:21.400> perspective<01:22:22.320> really<01:22:23.159> you<01:22:23.320> know<01:22:23.800> these

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are<01:22:24.520> ideas<01:22:24.920> that<01:22:25.239> we<01:22:25.360> don't<01:22:25.719> have<01:22:26.320> access<01:22:26.679> to<01:22:27.000> in<01:22:27.199> in<01:22:27.360> mainstream<01:22:28.199> life<01:22:28.600> in<01:22:28.760> in<01:22:28.880> our<01:22:29.159> jobs<01:22:29.560> in<01:22:29.719> our<01:22:30.600> but<01:22:31.320> look<01:22:31.520> at<01:22:31.840> what<01:22:32.080> the

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what<01:22:32.400> look<01:22:32.560> at<01:22:32.719> what's<01:22:32.920> happening<01:22:33.360> it<01:22:33.679> again<01:22:33.840> it<01:22:33.920> links<01:22:34.320> back<01:22:34.520> to<01:22:35.120> how<01:22:35.280> do<01:22:35.440> we<01:22:35.639> get<01:22:35.800> this<01:22:35.960> more<01:22:36.280> down<01:22:36.440> to<01:22:36.639> the<01:22:36.800> ground<01:22:37.080> and<01:22:37.239> we<01:22:37.360> have<01:22:37.520> all<01:22:37.719> these<01:22:38.000> incredible<01:22:38.760> ideas<01:22:39.600> that

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are<01:22:39.920> going<01:22:40.159> on<01:22:40.719> in<01:22:40.920> this<01:22:41.239> emerging<01:22:41.880> scholarship<01:22:42.520> of<01:22:43.120> postmaterialist<01:22:44.120> ideas<01:22:44.520> in<01:22:44.679> the<01:22:44.800> philosophy<01:22:45.280> and<01:22:46.000> sciences<01:22:47.000> um<01:22:47.679> and<01:22:47.800> it's

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it<01:22:48.120> is<01:22:48.280> that<01:22:48.480> offering<01:22:48.800> of<01:22:49.120> look<01:22:49.400> what's<01:22:49.679> happening<01:22:50.159> here<01:22:50.400> there<01:22:50.520> are<01:22:50.719> there<01:22:50.800> are<01:22:51.080> these<01:22:51.440> ideas<01:22:51.920> and<01:22:52.639> more<01:22:53.080> importantly<01:22:54.080> these<01:22:54.239> are<01:22:54.560> children's<01:22:55.239> experiences<01:22:56.239> and

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this<01:22:56.520> is<01:22:56.719> what<01:22:56.960> children<01:22:57.440> may<01:22:57.600> be<01:22:57.800> trying<01:22:58.080> to<01:22:58.679> convey<01:22:59.960> so<01:23:00.960> yeah<01:23:01.199> hopefully<01:23:01.560> it's<01:23:01.679> a<01:23:01.960> supportive<01:23:02.880> book<01:23:03.880> um<01:23:04.679> and

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it's<01:23:05.080> it's<01:23:05.199> a<01:23:05.360> start<01:23:05.679> of<01:23:05.840> a<01:23:06.040> 10<01:23:06.280> in<01:23:06.400> a<01:23:06.560> sense<01:23:06.840> it's<01:23:07.040> kind<01:23:07.199> of<01:23:07.360> the<01:23:07.560> start<01:23:07.840> of<01:23:08.000> a<01:23:08.199> conversation<01:23:09.040> so<01:23:09.679> it<01:23:09.840> doesn't<01:23:10.159> come<01:23:10.320> with<01:23:10.560> readymade<01:23:11.199> answers<01:23:11.800> about<01:23:12.800> you<01:23:12.920> know

01:23:13.080 --> 01:23:22.560
we<01:23:13.239> have<01:23:13.360> to<01:23:13.520> do<01:23:13.800> this<01:23:13.960> with<01:23:14.159> children<01:23:14.600> or<01:23:15.040> we<01:23:15.199> must<01:23:15.480> do<01:23:15.719> this<01:23:15.920> with<01:23:16.080> children<01:23:16.920> it's<01:23:17.120> it's<01:23:17.280> the<01:23:17.480> conversation

01:23:22.560 --> 01:23:31.440
starter<01:23:23.560> I<01:23:23.639> was<01:23:23.800> wondering<01:23:24.679> because<01:23:24.960> we<01:23:25.120> talk<01:23:25.560> often<01:23:26.080> about<01:23:27.120> extrasensory<01:23:28.120> experiences<01:23:28.840> of<01:23:29.000> children<01:23:29.639> in<01:23:29.800> a<01:23:30.040> negative<01:23:30.760> connotation

01:23:31.440 --> 01:23:39.800
negative<01:23:31.880> context<01:23:32.400> right<01:23:32.719> especially<01:23:33.440> with<01:23:34.280> when<01:23:34.480> we<01:23:34.880> refer<01:23:35.239> to<01:23:35.480> medical<01:23:35.920> professionals<01:23:36.520> and<01:23:37.239> right<01:23:38.600> illnesses<01:23:39.600> but

01:23:39.800 --> 01:23:48.239
what<01:23:40.227> are<01:23:40.655> the<01:23:41.082> positive<01:23:41.509> effects<01:23:41.937> of<01:23:42.364> extrasensory<01:23:42.792> experiences<01:23:43.219> in<01:23:43.646> children<01:23:44.074> and<01:23:44.501> how<01:23:44.928> can<01:23:45.356> they<01:23:45.783> be<01:23:46.211> positively<01:23:46.638> integrated<01:23:47.065> into<01:23:47.493> the<01:23:47.920> fabric

01:23:48.239 --> 01:23:56.560
of<01:23:48.480> life<01:23:49.120> what<01:23:49.280> can<01:23:49.400> we<01:23:49.560> learn<01:23:49.840> from<01:23:50.080> other<01:23:50.320> cultures<01:23:50.840> maybe<01:23:51.080> in<01:23:51.199> other<01:23:51.400> cultures<01:23:51.840> it's<01:23:52.120> not<01:23:52.560> so<01:23:53.560> critically<01:23:54.040> viewed<01:23:54.440> well<01:23:54.600> it's<01:23:54.800> not<01:23:55.400> and<01:23:55.600> that<01:23:55.800> that's<01:23:56.000> what's<01:23:56.239> really

01:23:56.560 --> 01:24:06.040
interesting<01:23:57.199> so<01:23:57.560> in<01:23:57.719> some<01:23:58.000> indigenous<01:23:58.639> cultures<01:23:59.320> across<01:23:59.719> the<01:23:59.880> world<01:24:00.639> um<01:24:01.400> when<01:24:01.679> children<01:24:02.440> start<01:24:02.800> to<01:24:03.000> have<01:24:03.320> particular<01:24:03.920> kinds<01:24:04.159> of<01:24:04.440> negative<01:24:05.040> experiences

01:24:06.040 --> 01:24:14.320
whether<01:24:06.320> it's<01:24:06.760> um<01:24:07.560> they've<01:24:07.880> they've<01:24:08.520> seen<01:24:09.040> someone<01:24:09.560> or<01:24:09.800> they<01:24:10.000> they're<01:24:10.159> hearing<01:24:10.679> voices<01:24:11.159> and<01:24:11.360> all<01:24:11.560> these<01:24:11.840> kinds<01:24:12.080> of<01:24:12.320> experiences<01:24:13.120> that<01:24:13.600> we<01:24:13.840> consider<01:24:14.199> to

01:24:14.320 --> 01:24:22.960
be<01:24:14.520> really<01:24:16.159> negative<01:24:17.159> what<01:24:17.400> happens<01:24:17.760> with<01:24:17.960> that<01:24:18.159> child<01:24:18.679> is<01:24:18.960> that<01:24:19.880> the<01:24:20.080> whole<01:24:20.440> community<01:24:21.159> will<01:24:21.400> come<01:24:21.600> around<01:24:22.000> that<01:24:22.239> child<01:24:22.760> and

01:24:22.960 --> 01:24:31.120
mentor<01:24:23.480> them<01:24:24.120> and<01:24:24.520> support<01:24:25.000> them<01:24:25.600> and<01:24:25.760> their<01:24:26.080> experience<01:24:26.719> is<01:24:26.960> embedded<01:24:27.520> into<01:24:27.800> this<01:24:28.040> wider<01:24:28.800> cultural<01:24:29.360> narrative<01:24:30.120> of<01:24:30.960> this

01:24:31.120 --> 01:24:40.400
is<01:24:31.400> okay<01:24:31.880> and<01:24:32.040> this<01:24:32.159> is<01:24:32.360> what<01:24:32.600> this<01:24:32.760> means<01:24:33.760> and<01:24:34.239> sometimes<01:24:34.520> they're<01:24:34.760> often<01:24:35.080> made<01:24:35.320> the<01:24:35.440> shaman<01:24:36.159> of<01:24:36.320> the<01:24:36.480> village<01:24:36.880> as<01:24:37.040> well<01:24:37.440> which<01:24:37.560> is<01:24:37.639> a<01:24:37.800> very<01:24:38.040> revered<01:24:38.920> position<01:24:39.920> so

01:24:40.400 --> 01:24:48.760
that's<01:24:40.840> that's<01:24:40.960> a<01:24:41.119> very<01:24:41.320> good<01:24:41.679> outcome<01:24:42.679> um<01:24:43.520> in<01:24:43.679> my<01:24:43.840> own<01:24:44.880> research<01:24:45.880> you<01:24:46.000> know<01:24:46.159> we've<01:24:46.360> looked<01:24:46.639> at<01:24:46.800> this<01:24:47.000> in<01:24:47.159> terms<01:24:47.520> of<01:24:48.119> if<01:24:48.360> a<01:24:48.480> child

01:24:48.760 --> 01:24:56.360
reports<01:24:49.078> a<01:24:49.397> negative<01:24:49.715> experience<01:24:50.033> and<01:24:50.351> it<01:24:50.670> was<01:24:50.988> really<01:24:51.306> negative<01:24:51.624> and<01:24:51.943> it<01:24:52.261> was<01:24:52.579> nearly<01:24:52.897> frightening<01:24:53.216> if<01:24:53.534> it<01:24:53.852> was<01:24:54.170> responded<01:24:54.489> to<01:24:54.807> in<01:24:55.125> a<01:24:55.443> particular<01:24:55.762> way<01:24:56.080> what

01:24:56.360 --> 01:25:04.679
what<01:24:56.480> was<01:24:56.639> the<01:24:56.800> outcome<01:24:57.159> of<01:24:57.320> that<01:24:57.520> experience<01:24:58.040> so<01:24:58.239> we<01:24:58.360> we<01:24:58.480> have<01:24:58.600> done<01:24:58.760> a<01:24:58.840> bit<01:24:58.960> of<01:24:59.119> this<01:24:59.199> in<01:24:59.360> the<01:24:59.520> research<01:25:00.400> involving<01:25:00.920> parents<01:25:01.280> in<01:25:01.400> the<01:25:01.560> research<01:25:02.119> too<01:25:03.119> and<01:25:03.400> quite<01:25:03.719> often

01:25:04.679 --> 01:25:13.280
what<01:25:04.880> that<01:25:05.040> research<01:25:05.520> shows<01:25:06.119> that<01:25:06.760> um<01:25:07.159> if<01:25:07.280> a<01:25:07.480> child<01:25:07.840> reports<01:25:08.320> an<01:25:08.760> experience<01:25:09.760> and<01:25:09.920> it's<01:25:10.119> handled<01:25:10.600> in<01:25:10.719> a<01:25:10.880> way<01:25:11.199> where<01:25:11.920> we<01:25:12.199> just<01:25:12.639> give<01:25:12.920> space

01:25:13.280 --> 01:25:22.320
To<01:25:13.480> the<01:25:13.679> child,<01:25:14.600> we<01:25:14.800> just<01:25:15.080> listen.<01:25:16.040> We<01:25:16.239> work<01:25:16.639> through<01:25:16.880> the<01:25:17.040> meaning<01:25:17.639> with<01:25:17.840> the<01:25:18.119> child,<01:25:19.119> then<01:25:19.760> ultimately<01:25:20.560> there's<01:25:20.760> there's<01:25:20.960> well-being<01:25:21.639> associated

01:25:22.320 --> 01:25:30.920
to<01:25:22.743> that.<01:25:23.166> So<01:25:23.589> one<01:25:24.013> example<01:25:24.436> example<01:25:24.859> is<01:25:25.282> there<01:25:25.705> was<01:25:26.128> a<01:25:26.552> little<01:25:26.975> boy<01:25:27.398> who<01:25:27.821> was<01:25:28.244> consistently<01:25:28.667> seeing<01:25:29.091> very<01:25:29.514> large<01:25:29.937> spider-type<01:25:30.360> beings

01:25:30.920 --> 01:25:38.520
would<01:25:31.205> just<01:25:31.489> say,<01:25:31.774> "I<01:25:32.058> don't<01:25:32.343> know<01:25:32.628> what<01:25:32.912> the<01:25:33.197> spider-type<01:25:33.482> beings,"<01:25:33.766> and<01:25:34.051> this<01:25:34.335> happened<01:25:34.620> for<01:25:34.905> quite<01:25:35.189> a<01:25:35.474> while,<01:25:35.758> and<01:25:36.043> it<01:25:36.328> was<01:25:36.612> intruding<01:25:36.897> on<01:25:37.182> on<01:25:37.466> his<01:25:37.751> daily<01:25:38.035> life<01:25:38.320> because

01:25:38.520 --> 01:25:46.639
he<01:25:38.639> was<01:25:38.760> always<01:25:39.000> frightened<01:25:39.480> and<01:25:40.400> scared.<01:25:41.400> So,<01:25:41.600> you<01:25:41.719> know,<01:25:41.880> we<01:25:42.000> talked<01:25:42.320> about<01:25:42.600> this<01:25:42.760> in<01:25:42.920> the<01:25:43.320> research,<01:25:44.320> and<01:25:44.639> you<01:25:44.760> know<01:25:44.920> his<01:25:45.119> parent<01:25:45.560> reported<01:25:46.239> that,<01:25:46.400> you<01:25:46.520> know,

01:25:46.639 --> 01:25:54.520
she<01:25:46.960> she'd<01:25:47.159> been<01:25:47.440> approaching<01:25:48.040> this<01:25:48.280> from<01:25:48.639> just<01:25:48.840> listening<01:25:49.400> and<01:25:49.760> maybe<01:25:50.000> doing<01:25:50.199> some<01:25:50.400> drawing<01:25:50.840> and<01:25:51.040> just<01:25:51.400> just<01:25:51.679> affording<01:25:52.199> that<01:25:52.440> space<01:25:52.920> again,<01:25:53.719> and<01:25:53.840> he<01:25:53.960> started<01:25:54.280> wanting

01:25:54.520 --> 01:26:03.000
to<01:25:54.679> compare<01:25:55.199> that<01:25:55.440> to<01:25:56.239> Spider-Man,<01:25:57.239> who's<01:25:57.639> who's<01:25:57.800> a<01:25:58.000> superhero<01:25:58.840> who<01:25:59.080> who<01:25:59.239> he<01:25:59.440> really<01:25:59.719> likes.<01:26:00.520> So<01:26:01.520> just<01:26:01.800> that<01:26:01.960> whole<01:26:02.360> process<01:26:02.800> of

01:26:03.000 --> 01:26:12.080
not<01:26:03.239> fobbing<01:26:03.719> it<01:26:03.920> off,<01:26:04.520> of<01:26:05.360> providing<01:26:05.920> that<01:26:06.199> space<01:26:06.639> for<01:26:06.800> the<01:26:06.960> child<01:26:07.199> to<01:26:07.360> be<01:26:07.560> taken<01:26:08.040> seriously,<01:26:08.840> which<01:26:08.960> is<01:26:09.159> really<01:26:09.520> important,<01:26:10.520> and<01:26:10.719> listen<01:26:11.119> to

01:26:12.080 --> 01:26:20.679
it<01:26:12.239> took<01:26:12.480> them<01:26:12.639> on<01:26:12.840> that<01:26:13.000> journey<01:26:13.360> and<01:26:13.520> that<01:26:13.800> process<01:26:14.440> from,<01:26:15.000> "This<01:26:15.119> is<01:26:15.320> really<01:26:15.520> scary<01:26:15.960> and<01:26:16.119> negative,"<01:26:16.520> to,<01:26:17.320> "Well,<01:26:18.000> actually,<01:26:19.000> I<01:26:19.080> might<01:26:19.199> be<01:26:19.280> a<01:26:19.360> bit<01:26:19.480> of<01:26:19.560> a<01:26:19.679> superhero<01:26:20.440> here"

01:26:20.679 --> 01:26:29.360
and<01:26:20.880> and<01:26:21.040> this<01:26:21.159> is<01:26:21.440> okay,<01:26:21.760> and<01:26:21.880> it's<01:26:22.119> okay<01:26:22.320> for<01:26:22.480> me<01:26:22.600> to<01:26:22.840> experience<01:26:23.520> this<01:26:23.880> as<01:26:24.040> well.<01:26:25.920> So,<01:26:27.960> which<01:26:28.960> nicely

01:26:29.360 --> 01:26:39.239
links<01:26:29.719> to<01:26:29.840> my<01:26:30.040> next<01:26:30.320> question:<01:26:31.239> What<01:26:31.520> advice<01:26:32.280> would<01:26:32.440> you<01:26:32.600> give<01:26:32.840> to<01:26:33.159> children,<01:26:34.159> parents,<01:26:34.840> and<01:26:35.040> medical<01:26:35.480> professionals<01:26:36.480> when<01:26:36.719> children<01:26:37.159> have<01:26:38.239> spontaneously

01:26:39.239 --> 01:26:46.920
various<01:26:39.880> extrasensory<01:26:40.880> experiences?<01:26:41.440> And<01:26:41.560> I<01:26:41.639> would<01:26:41.760> imagine<01:26:42.119> advice<01:26:42.440> could<01:26:42.600> be<01:26:42.800> different<01:26:43.239> per<01:26:43.480> category.<01:26:44.080> I<01:26:44.119> was<01:26:44.199> just<01:26:44.320> going<01:26:44.400> to<01:26:44.520> say,<01:26:44.800> I<01:26:44.960> try<01:26:45.480> I<01:26:45.600> try<01:26:45.800> not<01:26:45.960> to<01:26:46.239> give<01:26:46.520> advice

01:26:46.920 --> 01:26:54.080
or<01:26:47.119> tell<01:26:47.360> anyone<01:26:47.679> what<01:26:47.800> to<01:26:47.920> do<01:26:48.119> because<01:26:48.400> I<01:26:48.560> really<01:26:48.840> appreciate<01:26:49.480> that<01:26:50.159> children<01:26:50.520> are<01:26:50.800> different,<01:26:51.159> but<01:26:51.360> also<01:26:51.600> the<01:26:51.920> relationships<01:26:52.920> between<01:26:53.199> adults<01:26:53.520> and<01:26:53.679> children<01:26:53.960> can

01:26:54.080 --> 01:27:03.239
be<01:26:54.360> really<01:26:54.639> different.<01:26:55.440> So<01:26:55.639> I<01:26:55.719> think<01:26:55.920> the<01:26:56.080> only<01:26:56.360> thing<01:26:56.560> that<01:26:56.679> I<01:26:56.800> could<01:26:56.960> say<01:26:57.159> to<01:26:57.400> that<01:26:57.719> is<01:26:58.199> is<01:26:58.480> is<01:26:58.679> just<01:26:58.920> use<01:26:59.600> give<01:27:00.159> space<01:27:01.119> and<01:27:01.360> just<01:27:01.600> deeply<01:27:02.000> listen<01:27:03.000> and

01:27:03.239 --> 01:27:11.639
take<01:27:03.440> it<01:27:03.639> from<01:27:04.040> there.<01:27:04.960> And<01:27:05.199> you<01:27:05.320> know,<01:27:05.880> look<01:27:06.080> at<01:27:06.360> as<01:27:06.560> as<01:27:06.679> the<01:27:06.800> adult,<01:27:07.480> maybe<01:27:07.719> look<01:27:07.880> at<01:27:08.080> what's<01:27:08.360> coming<01:27:08.639> up<01:27:08.960> in<01:27:09.199> you.<01:27:09.520> So<01:27:09.880> instead<01:27:10.199> of<01:27:10.320> just<01:27:10.480> keep<01:27:10.679> looking<01:27:10.960> at<01:27:11.080> the<01:27:11.280> child,

01:27:11.639 --> 01:27:18.760
just<01:27:11.840> have<01:27:11.960> a<01:27:12.119> look<01:27:12.280> at<01:27:12.440> what's<01:27:12.679> coming<01:27:12.960> up<01:27:13.119> in<01:27:13.360> you<01:27:14.280> because<01:27:14.600> that<01:27:14.719> will<01:27:14.920> always<01:27:15.239> kind<01:27:15.360> of<01:27:15.560> determine<01:27:16.159> how<01:27:16.320> you<01:27:16.560> then<01:27:16.840> respond<01:27:17.280> and<01:27:17.480> react.<01:27:17.800> And<01:27:17.920> even<01:27:18.159> if<01:27:18.320> something's

01:27:18.760 --> 01:27:27.199
really<01:27:19.600> uncomfortable,<01:27:20.600> just<01:27:20.840> just<01:27:21.000> keep<01:27:21.199> looking<01:27:21.480> what's<01:27:21.719> happening<01:27:22.159> there<01:27:22.360> and<01:27:22.560> just<01:27:23.080> give<01:27:23.679> your<01:27:24.239> child<01:27:24.480> or<01:27:24.719> the<01:27:24.840> child<01:27:25.080> you're<01:27:25.280> working<01:27:25.800> with<01:27:26.600> just<01:27:26.840> room

01:27:27.199 --> 01:27:35.920
to<01:27:27.480> express<01:27:27.840> it<01:27:28.000> and<01:27:28.159> to<01:27:28.400> explore<01:27:28.840> it<01:27:29.000> in<01:27:29.119> a<01:27:29.280> in<01:27:29.360> a<01:27:29.560> safe<01:27:30.080> and<01:27:30.280> gentle<01:27:30.880> way.<01:27:31.560> But<01:27:31.760> I<01:27:31.960> I<01:27:32.159> try,<01:27:33.119> you<01:27:33.239> know,<01:27:33.360> I<01:27:33.480> don't<01:27:33.639> like<01:27:33.840> to<01:27:34.000> give<01:27:34.280> advice<01:27:34.960> for<01:27:35.719> for

01:27:35.920 --> 01:27:46.040
a<01:27:36.080> number<01:27:36.320> of<01:27:36.560> reasons<01:27:37.159> that<01:27:37.440> might<01:27:37.639> not<01:27:37.800> be<01:27:38.000> applicable<01:27:38.520> to<01:27:38.719> another<01:27:39.080> child,<01:27:39.400> for<01:27:39.600> example.<01:27:40.600> Completely<01:27:41.360> understand.<01:27:42.040> And<01:27:42.159> the<01:27:42.360> medical<01:27:43.400> professionals,<01:27:45.040> what

01:27:46.040 --> 01:27:54.199
for<01:27:46.320> medical<01:27:46.719> professionals,<01:27:47.320> what<01:27:47.440> can<01:27:47.560> we<01:27:47.719> tell<01:27:48.480> these<01:27:48.760> people?<01:27:49.360> Yeah,<01:27:49.639> I<01:27:49.719> mean<01:27:50.320> medical<01:27:50.960> I<01:27:51.040> mean<01:27:51.239> my<01:27:51.400> my<01:27:51.520> own<01:27:51.760> daughter<01:27:52.040> is<01:27:52.159> a<01:27:52.320> medical<01:27:52.840> professional<01:27:53.400> now,<01:27:53.840> you<01:27:53.920> know,

01:27:54.199 --> 01:28:02.560
she's<01:27:54.400> a<01:27:54.520> midwife<01:27:55.159> now,<01:27:55.520> and<01:27:56.080> [um]<01:27:57.080> they're<01:27:57.600> they<01:27:57.960> they<01:27:58.040> are<01:27:58.280> incredible<01:27:59.000> medical<01:27:59.440> professionals.<01:28:00.040> They<01:28:00.199> give<01:28:00.440> so<01:28:00.719> much<01:28:01.400> [um]<01:28:01.800> they<01:28:02.000> work<01:28:02.360> such

01:28:02.560 --> 01:28:10.920
long<01:28:02.840> hours,<01:28:03.199> and<01:28:03.320> it's<01:28:03.480> really<01:28:03.760> challenging<01:28:04.320> to<01:28:04.920> say,<01:28:05.920> "Yeah,<01:28:06.119> everything<01:28:06.400> you're<01:28:06.600> thinking<01:28:07.000> it<01:28:07.119> might<01:28:07.320> not<01:28:07.440> be<01:28:07.639> quite<01:28:07.920> correct,"<01:28:08.440> and<01:28:09.280> [um]<01:28:10.159> but<01:28:10.639> just

01:28:10.920 --> 01:28:19.920
just<01:28:11.320> there's<01:28:11.600> there's<01:28:12.040> again<01:28:12.360> alternative<01:28:13.119> ideas<01:28:13.639> out<01:28:14.000> there,<01:28:14.560> and<01:28:14.960> sometimes<01:28:15.199> when<01:28:15.360> we<01:28:15.639> do<01:28:15.840> try<01:28:16.199> something<01:28:16.719> different<01:28:17.719> [uh]<01:28:17.840> we<01:28:18.000> might<01:28:18.280> be<01:28:18.760> surprised<01:28:19.760> at

01:28:19.920 --> 01:28:28.119
the<01:28:20.239> results<01:28:21.239> [um],<01:28:21.679> but<01:28:21.880> there's<01:28:22.119> there's<01:28:22.320> fear<01:28:22.800> as<01:28:22.960> well<01:28:23.239> because<01:28:24.080> you<01:28:24.159> know<01:28:24.280> we<01:28:24.400> we<01:28:24.520> talked<01:28:24.760> about<01:28:24.960> this<01:28:25.080> a<01:28:25.159> little<01:28:25.360> bit<01:28:25.480> earlier<01:28:25.920> that<01:28:26.600> in<01:28:26.719> a<01:28:26.960> profession<01:28:27.600> and<01:28:27.719> as<01:28:27.840> an

01:28:28.119 --> 01:28:36.480
academic<01:28:29.119> it<01:28:29.239> can<01:28:29.360> be<01:28:29.520> really<01:28:29.760> scary<01:28:30.159> to<01:28:30.320> talk<01:28:30.560> about<01:28:30.880> these<01:28:31.080> things.<01:28:31.320> I<01:28:31.400> mean<01:28:31.600> I<01:28:31.760> experienced<01:28:32.360> this<01:28:32.600> myself<01:28:33.119> in<01:28:33.760> [uh]<01:28:34.639> 2018<01:28:35.360> or<01:28:35.520> 17<01:28:35.960> when<01:28:36.080> I<01:28:36.239> first

01:28:36.480 --> 01:28:44.679
started<01:28:37.199> when<01:28:37.320> I<01:28:37.400> said<01:28:37.600> to<01:28:37.719> my<01:28:37.880> university,<01:28:38.480> "Right,<01:28:38.719> I'm<01:28:38.840> going<01:28:39.040> to<01:28:39.199> research<01:28:39.719> this."<01:28:39.880> It<01:28:40.000> was<01:28:40.560> like,<01:28:41.600> "Really?"<01:28:42.600> And<01:28:42.719> I<01:28:42.800> was<01:28:43.040> like,<01:28:43.320> "Yeah,"<01:28:43.480> and<01:28:43.800> you<01:28:43.880> know<01:28:43.960> I<01:28:44.119> stuck<01:28:44.400> to<01:28:44.560> it,

01:28:44.679 --> 01:28:53.080
but<01:28:44.760> it<01:28:44.840> was<01:28:45.040> very<01:28:45.239> scary,<01:28:45.760> and<01:28:45.920> it<01:28:46.080> was<01:28:46.239> it<01:28:46.360> took<01:28:46.520> a<01:28:46.679> long<01:28:47.000> time<01:28:47.280> for<01:28:48.239> for<01:28:48.520> that<01:28:48.719> work<01:28:48.920> to<01:28:49.040> be<01:28:49.239> taken<01:28:49.719> seriously<01:28:50.400> and<01:28:50.560> then<01:28:50.880> obviously<01:28:51.239> for<01:28:51.400> the<01:28:51.560> work<01:28:51.760> to<01:28:51.960> grow<01:28:52.760> into

01:28:53.080 --> 01:29:02.119
now<01:28:53.320> what<01:28:53.480> is<01:28:53.800> an<01:28:54.080> International<01:28:54.600> Research<01:28:55.119> Unit.<01:28:56.159> So<01:28:57.159> it's<01:28:57.480> possible,<01:28:58.119> it's<01:28:58.440> possible.<01:28:59.080> So<01:28:59.239> it's<01:28:59.440> changing<01:28:59.840> in<01:28:59.960> your<01:29:00.199> view<01:29:00.600> also?<01:29:01.239> Absolutely.

01:29:02.119 --> 01:29:10.400
Yeah,<01:29:02.719> yeah,<01:29:03.320> for<01:29:03.560> the<01:29:03.679> better.<01:29:04.239> Yeah,<01:29:04.719> for<01:29:04.920> the<01:29:05.080> better.<01:29:05.760> Yeah,<01:29:06.119> very<01:29:07.000> good.<01:29:08.000> Donna,<01:29:08.360> thank<01:29:08.520> you<01:29:08.639> very<01:29:08.840> much<01:29:09.040> for<01:29:09.239> this<01:29:09.400> interview.<01:29:09.960> Thank<01:29:10.159> you.

01:29:10.400 --> 01:29:13.760
It's<01:29:10.560> a<01:29:10.679> real<01:29:11.000> pleasure.<01:29:11.560> Thank<01:29:11.760> you.

```